KFTC Blog

More Mountaintop Removal? Say NO to the Governor’s Plans

Erik Hungerbuhler — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:52:03 -0500



Pine Branch Coal Co. mountaintop removal mine ner the Hazard airport

Did you catch the news earlier this week? Gov. Steve Beshear wants a new state energy plan and he wants more mountaintop removal, more coal burning and possibly even nuclear energy to be part of that plan!

The same day this announcement was released the City of Louisville issued an air quality alert. And — if the day was like any other average day in Kentucky — two Kentuckians died prematurely because of complications caused by air pollution from coal-fired power plants, and another coalfield family lost their water well as a result of mining.

While much of the rest of the world works to wean ourselves from the dirtiest of all fossil fuels, our officials in Frankfort are embracing coal — including mining it in the most destructive way possible. It is hard to believe that this is what Kentuckians want. In fact, we know it’s not. We need your help in convincing Gov. Beshear that this is the wrong path for Kentucky.

Starting last night in Pike County, Gov. Beshear began a series of town hall meetings throughout Kentucky. Over the next five weeks the governor will hold a dozen more such meetings. We hope that at every stop KFTC members will be there to challenge the governor on his misguided policies, that not only include his active promotion of mountaintop removal but also:

-- the horrible budget he proposed earlier this year that included massive cuts for education, human services and environmental protection;

-- his failure to support the restoration of voting rights for former felons legislation until it was too late in the session to do any good;

-- his administration’s blocking of efforts to expand the goals of Kentucky’s economic development programs to include reducing poverty and inequality, promoting innovation and entrepreneurship, and conserving the integrity of Kentucky's natural and cultural heritage.

ACTION:

Kentuckians want and expect better. We hope all KFTC members will make an effort to attend one of the town meetings below and speak out about these and other issues that concern you.

The “Beshear About Kentucky” tour includes:

July 21 – Somerset: Somerset High School
July 24 – Winchester: George Rogers Clark High School
July 28 – Ashland
July 31 – Madisonville
August 5 – Shepherdsville
August 6 – Bowling Green
August 11 – Owensboro
August 12 – Hazard
August 13 – Northern Kentucky
August 18 – Henderson
August 19 – Murray
August 20 – Paducah

All events will begin at 6:00 p.m. local time. However, the governor’s office is not releasing the location of each gathering until a few days prior. You can call the governor’s office at 502-564-2611, check his web site and we will put it on the KFTC calendar as soon as we know.

There are other actions you can take:

1) Call the governor’s office (502-564-2611) and leave a message that more mountaintop removal and more fossil fuel dependence is wrong for Kentucky. He should oppose these practices, not embrace them.

2) Write a letter to the editor about any of these issues that most concerns you — coal, energy, budget, voting rights, accountable economic development. Help create a public conversation that will move Kentucky forward by investing in a better future for all Kentuckians.

THANKS for taking action!

Members gather at Hazard Airport for congressional visit

Erik Hungerbuhler — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:17:54 -0500

Fifty KFTC members gathered at the Hazard Airport on Saturday awaiting a visit from Congressman Chandler and the Chairman of the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Interior and the Environment, Norm Dicks, of Washington State. They were on their way to Eastern Kentucky on a fact finding tour to learn more about the impacts of mountaintop removal coal mining. However, they were unable to make the tour because the plane they were flying in on from Washington DC, a plane operated by the Office of Surface Mining, had a dead battery the morning of their flight. The House Appropriations Subcommittee on Interior and the Environment has jurisdiction over the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Office of Surface Mining (OSM).

"They'll set it up again and we'll be here again" - Dolvin Rattliff, Floyd County

After learning that the Congressional Tour was not going to happen, the fifty community members that had come out to greet them quickly organized a press conference and turned the disappointment into a great event. Members shared stories. Rep. Don Pasley came out and participated in the press conference and told the crowd, "We need to praise you, citizen activists, for raising these important issues." Ann League of SOCM came from Tennessee on her birthday to be a part of the day and to speak on behalf of the Alliance For Appalachia. Her message for the press that this is a regional issue affection all Appalachians and the grassroots groups in the region are working together on solutions. Dr. Matt Wasson of Appalachian Voices gave a presentation to the group on the most recent scientific findings on mountaintop removal that was informative and compelling. Members shared lunch and spoke with members of the press present.

Even though we are frustrated and disappointed that Chandler and Dicks were not able to be here, it was still a veery good experience because we were able to come together to share stories, learn about what's going on in different communities and gain information on the most current scientific research. We're leaving today more knowledgeable and motivated

- Sara Pennington, Knott County Member

Chandler and Dicks say they are committed to coming to Kentucky and are working to rescheduling their visit.

News and blog coverage of the day

MTR Congressional Flyover with KFTC Cancelled

Dave Newton — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:13:26 -0500

From the Lexington Herald-Leader Sunday

Flight to examine effects of mining canceled

HAZARD — Two congressmen planned to tour mountaintop mining sites Saturday and speak with residents living deep in the central Appalachian coalfields, but canceled the trip after their plane wouldn't start.

U.S. representatives Ben Chandler and Norm Dicks intended to fly over dozens of mining sites in West Virginia and Eastern Kentucky in what Chandler's office described as “a fact-finding trip.”

Chandler's spokesman, Jim Creevy, said the trip was canceled because the plane's battery was dead. A main switch was left on overnight, and it would have taken three hours to recharge the battery, he said.

The congressmen were scheduled to fly from Virginia to the Wendell H. Ford Airport in Hazard.

Dozens of Appalachian residents and members of Kentuckians for the Commonwealth, a social justice group that opposes mountaintop removal, gathered at the Hazard airport prepared to share their experiences and speak to the congressmen against mining.

The trip would have been especially significant because Chandler was bringing Dicks with him.

Dicks, D-Washington, chairs the House Appropriations subcommittee that has oversight of environmental matters, giving him a great deal of clout in such issues.

His visit would have been the first time a member of Congress in such a position has traveled to Kentucky to view large-scale surface mining and meet with opponents.

Creevy said Chandler has promised to reschedule the flyover, but he did not indicate when.

“Congressman Chandler has been trying to bring this issue to attention,” said Denis Fleming, chief of staff for Chandler, a Democrat from Versailles. “He's concerned about it.”

See the complete Herald Leader Story Here.

Other reports:

"Mountaintop removal trip sabotaged?" - The News and Tribune

"Congressional tour of mountaintop mining canceled" - Associated Press

"Broken News: Reps Dick, Chandler mysteriously grounded" - Daily Kos

Wizard Rock The Vote

Dave Newton — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:52:22 -0500

UK KFTC members and friends are organizing a "Wizard Rock" concert later this month, with national bands inspired by their love of Harry Potter. We're using this fun occasion to register voters and encourage people to be involved in politics and to make their communities better. Come join us!

It's not magic... but grassroots organizing sure can change our communities for the better.

Op-ed on mountaintop removal in the Herald-Leader today

Erik Hungerbuhler — Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:36:46 -0500

Today's Herald Leader had an op-ed by a former miner about the devastating impact of mountaintop removal on the rivers and streams of Appalachia. Go read it if you have a moment.

When I visit relatives in Big Stone Gap, Va., I love to stop at Roaring Branch. There are steps that lead up to a wonderful spot overlooking the highway.

If it's 95 degrees and 95 percent humidity on the road, it is always 20 to 25 degrees cooler up there, just like walking into air conditioning. There is always a very good flow of water, even in times of drought; it is clean, clear and unpolluted. I would say it is even safe to drink — at least it was.

I was shocked and completely dismayed by what I found on a recent trip: Roaring Branch no longer roars.

You can read the full article here

Budget Cuts Affecting Access to Higher Education

Jessica Hays — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:01:18 -0500

A few articles of note

A Courier-Journal article about the possible closing of the local GED testing center

at JCTC due to budget cuts. Here's an excerpt:

Jefferson Community and Technical College plans to shut down its high school equivalency testing center -- the largest in the state -- at the end of the year, saying state funding cuts make it impossible to continue.

Closing the center -- which operates testing sites in Jefferson and surrounding counties -- means thousands of Louisville-area residents, many of them with limited resources, would have to travel to take the exam for a General Educational Development diploma, or GED. The nearest center is in Shelby County.

And with one in four working age adults in Kentucky lacking a high school diploma or GED, that's more bad news for a state trying to strengthen its economy by improving the education level of its workers.

And it's very bad news for all of the people in Jefferson County who are working for an education. The article highlights a single mother who's been studying for her GED, and who is worried about being able to access a testing site if the Louisville site closes.

Another article about the growing lack of access to higher ed in Kentucky from the Herald-Leader, Cost of college on lawmakers' minds. The article points out, "Tuition at Kentucky's public universities and community colleges has shot up an average of 12 percent a year over the last five years, which is about four times the rate of inflation and the growth of the state's median family income.

Here's another interesting excerpt:

The legislative subcommittee hopes to determine precisely what's causing the diminishing affordability of a college education.

Hmm. Did they notice those budget cuts that they delivered?

Voter Empowerment Training - Sign up online

Dave Newton — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:18:27 -0500

Our online registration form for our big Statewide Voter Empowerment training with Jobs with Justice is now up and running.

Please sign up online if you want to participate in the training!

You can also learn more and see the agenda on our online calendar event listing.

Election Special Tomorrow on PBS

Dave Newton — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:09:10 -0500

Tomorrow (Tuesday, July 1st) at 10 pm, PBS will broadcast "Election Day," a film by Katy Chevigny that combines 11 stories - shot simultaneously on November 2, 2004 (Election Day) from dawn until long past midnight.

A segment of the documentary highlights felon disenfranchisement with formerly incarcerated New York City resident Leon Batts who just regained his right to vote. Preparing to cast his first ballot, Batts sees his vote as one representing all individuals denied the right because of a felony conviction. But Batts finds casting a vote more problematic than he anticipated. Click here to view trailer

CKY Festival Voter Registration

Dave Newton — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:24:06 -0500

This weekend, the Central Kentucky Chapter members registered voters downtown at both the Lexington Pride Festival and the Diversity Festival. Members participating included Jenn Myatt, Joe Gallenstein, Danny Cotton, Caitlin Powell, and Doug Rigsby.

Members also circulated postcards to David Williams encouraging him to support restoration of voting rights for former felons, and had several good conversations with people who had lost their voting rights.

Our friends at Lexington Fairness were kind enough to provide some space for our table and for our volunteers to take some rest in the shade and members said they really enjoyed working with them in a show of solidarity across organizational lines.

Two good letters to the editor in today's Herald-Leader

Erik Hungerbuhler — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:17:07 -0500

Mining hurts Kentuckians' quality of life

In Pike County, Clintwood Elkhorn Mining has self-reported to the Army Corps of Engineers that it had mined through two streams and constructed two sediment ponds without having a permit. As a result, water on Millers Creek above Fishtrap Lake, the source of drinking water for Pikeville and much of Pike County, was affected.

Despite this, Bill Caylor, president of the Kentucky Coal Association, says he doubts there is any validity to Kentuckians for the Commonwealth's and Sierra Club's allegations.

I invite Caylor and the media to visit the site with members of the community, who won't drink their home water, won't eat fish they catch in Fishtrap Lake and have been and are being affected by the destructive and desperate act of mountaintop removal mining.

Caylor can sit in his office in Lexington and continue to close his mind, but the people who live with this every day would like to open his eyes and the eyes of people who live downstream and want to protect their drinking water.

John Cleveland

Sierra Club organizer

Blackey

Big Coal wins again

I guess coal companies have won again. In this year's legislative session, the "stream saver" bill was voted down. Actions like this keep showing coal companies they are above the law.

I guess they can keep destroying the mountains, murdering animals and poisoning our streams with no law to stop them and no government agency to police them.

Do you think Kentucky Coal Association President Bill Caylor will ever admit what mountaintop-removal mining really does to the environment? According to him, it is the best thing for the mountains.

Our politicians are afraid to vote against the coal industry because they fear angering too many of their voters and not getting re-elected, even though they know what they are doing is wrong and should be against the law.

Larry Wilder

Pineville

KFTC makes cover of Ark Magazine

Dave Newton — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:42:24 -0500

Central Kentucky KFTC Members Sarah Harcourt, Sally Evans, and Doug Rigsby appeared on the front page of Ark - the publication of the National Organizer's Alliance this month, along with a story about voter empowerment campaigns in Kentucky spearheaded by KFTC and Kentucky Jobs With Justice.

Madison members celebrate "leadership and courage"

Lisa Abbott — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:01:05 -0500

More than 80 people turned out for a lively potluck dinner and celebration of local youth, KFTC members and elected officials who demonstrated leadership and courage in the 2008 General Assembly.

"There is no denying that many of the outcomes of the session were a bitter disappointment," stated Teri Blanton, who emceed the event."But anyone who has ever worked for something worthwhile knows that success doesn’t happen overnight. Along the way it is important for us to celebrate each other and say thank you."

The chapter presented three legislators from Madison County with certificates of appreciation for their leadership and courage. Rep. Harry Moberly, Rep. Lonnie Napier and Rep. Don Pasley all supported many of KFTC's priority bills.

"As members of the Appropriations and Revenue Committee, they were in the hot seat," explained Melissa Fry-Konty as she presented a certificate to Rep. Lonnie Napier. "Legislators on that committee were the first to cast votes on many of the most difficult and important issues facing the commonwealth, including tax reform, the state budget, the stream saver bill, and a major initiative on renewable energy and energy efficiency."

Awards were also given to the many young people from Madison County who traveled with KFTC to Frankfort in 2008, including the entire fourth grade class of Berea Community Elementary School. Fourth grade teacher Karen Mattingly accepted a certificate on behalf of those students.

"I am proud to be part of this fine organization and group of people," declared member Gail Waldeck as she presented awards to four members of the local chapter who testified before legislative committees.

Music during the event was provided by a terrific local band called Mud Pi. Dozens of volunteers helped with the set-up and clean-up of the event. Thanks to everyone who turned out and pitched in!

Budget cuts prevent environmental agencies from enforcing the law

Lisa Abbott — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:26:00 -0500

We received a note today from John Cleveland, a long-time KFTC member who lives in Letcher County. His story is yet another example of how state budget cuts are making it impossible for public agencies to fulfill their mission of protecting public health and the environment.

John writes that oil and gas inspectors have apparently been told to ignore aspects of the law they are charged to enforce. This is not surprising, since the budget proposed by Governor Steve Beshear and passed by the General Assembly slashed the budget for the Kentucky Department of Natural Resources by 21%! Here's John's letter:

I had a State Oil and Gas (O/G) inspector show up at my house today. He told me that the State is not enforcing state law that requires an oil/gas company to register all tanks that collect oil or brine that are located at gas wells. He told me that he was inspecting an area, when he discovered a new tank and well that had not been there in the past. He couldn't find any info in his records of this tank, so he took a gps point for the site, and checked on it when he got back to his office. He was unable to find info there either. He asked his supervisor about this, and his supervisor told him that since the state budget cutbacks over the last few years, that they weren't registering these tanks any more, because they didn't have the staff to do the paperwork or the inspections.

He told me that the unregistered tanks he's aware of are mostly owned by Chesapeake and Equitable Gas companies. State law requires oil/gas companies to register all tanks that hold brine or oil. That doesn't mean that they don't have to do it if they don't feel like it, the law states SHALL register! So obviously some of the oil/gas companies are no longer registering storage tanks and the state is not assuring that they do.

What if there is a leak, or some vandals shoot holes in one of these tanks. How long might it be before someone happens to come by and see toxic brine water or oil running in the stream? There has been a massive number of new wells in the last two years in eastern Kentucky, so this is a disaster that will happen, it's just a matter of when.

Wouldn't complying with the law and assuring an adequate number of inspectors, be the right thing to do? When does too much cutting the budget start to endanger the water, fish, wildlife or even human life? It appears to me that we have reached that point or gone past it. I call on Governor Beshear to look at the long-term costs of cutting enforcement in oil, gas and mining, and fix this problem.

Recent News on Coal, Energy and Mountaintop Removal Mining and Valley Fills

Kevin Pentz — Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:54:32 -0500

The following are news articles and blog posts about coal, mountaintop removal mining and valley fills, and energy from a regional, national and global perspective.

The Price of Central Appalachian Coal:

According to Reuters, central Appalachian coal was selling for $128 a short ton on the spot markets on June 11th. Which means metallurgic, the coal that is used to make steel, is probably selling for close to $300 a short ton.

Articles about Coal:

Here is a CNN story with the latest news about the search for the remaining 12 miners still missing after a methane gas explosion in a Ukrainian coal mine.

Opposition to building new coal fired power plants continues to grow all across the US. Here is a press release from a coalition of groups calling on the Governor of New York to to Ditch plans for a new coal fired power plant in Jamestown New York. I still believe God's method of carbon sequestration is the best. Help save a planet. Coal, leave it in the ground.
Many of you may have heard about film maker Morgan Spurlock's newest episode of his hit TV show 30 day where he becomes a deep miner for 30 days. You can watch the hour long episode here. It's a very good program to humanizes the dangerous and difficult work being done daily by deep-miners in central Appalachia.

The program reveals the pride that deep-miners have in their work and the work of their family members and friends. But Morgan Spurlock also has conversations with miners who admit that they do not want to see their children go into the mines. And, in conversations with other miners, they raise concerns about what the long-term damage to the region's environment will be from mining. The program also touches on the destruction being done to the mountains of central Appalachia by mountaintop removal mining. What most people who are not familiar with deep mining will find shocking about this program are the recurring conversations Morgan Spurlock has with his fellow miners about Black Lung. It will be a shock for most people to realize that through their occupation deep miners are slowly committing suicide from Black Lung because of their exposure to coal dust. I came away from the program with a sense of awe of miners who are willing to perform such a dangerous job day-in and day-out, but also a sense of anger at the industry and the county for not making this job safer and for not moving away from our reliance on coal so nobody's children will have to go into the mines. We need to invest in the people of Appalachia so there are more than two choices for people in this region: to either get an education and have to move away to find work or to stay and work in the mines. We can’t continue to live on the backs of their sacrifices.

Here is an interesting editorial from the Huntington Herald Dispatch about the need for the country to figure out how we are going to proceed with developing coal fired power plants with carbon capture and sequestration technology. Unfortunately the editorial fails to address the real question, does it make sense for tax payers to throw billions of dollars into developing the process? Nobody disputes that for right now we will continue to use coal, but for the future we need to use our hard earned dollars to invest in safe and clean energy such as solar and wind. We may always need some base load energy to come from coal or natural gas but our dependence on these fossil fuel needs to decrease to around 5 to 10 percent of our electricity production. only then will we have the political will to make our mines safe and to fully enforce all mining regulations.
With companies such as James River Coal making money hand over fist they they will be trying to mine as much coal as possible as quickly as possible in order to sell it while the price is so high. According to this article in in Forbes, James River Coals stocks have risen 320% since the beginning of the year, I wonder how much of those profits are being passed on to the miners?
Picketing miners at a Montana coal mine vote to continue their strike even though they get on $35 a day on the picket lines. You can read about it here in an article by Tom Lutey in the Billings Gazette.
This news story shows that it's even possible for deep mines to reduce their emissions of Green House Gases. Of course if both the coal and the methane were to stay in the ground, but at least they trying. Removing the methane from a deep mine and burning is is not only better for an increasingly hot planet, it is also safer for the miners. Now that companies see they can make money on removing the methane from deep mines maybe they will really try. And according to this website, methane gas is 20 times stronger as a Green House Gas than CO2. Think for a minute about how much methane gas is released from a strip mine where they have no way of collecting the methane gas.
Here is a great article written by Jeff Goodell, the author of the book Big Coal's Dirty Secret. The title of the piece says it all How Clean Coal Cooks Your Brain. And some of the videos at the top of the page are pretty good too. For that matter just take a while and explore the whole website www.coal-is-dirty.com, it's work a look.

"Clean coal" is not an actual invention, a physical thing – it is an advertising slogan. Like "fat-free donuts" or "interest-free loans."

More news about coal industry stock prices rising, Business Week says stocks for Alpha Natural Resources, which operates 64 mines in central Appalachia, have tripled since December of '07 and they are likely to go much higher due to China's demand for metallurgic coal-used to make steal. Once again I wonder if the coal miners will see any of these gains in profits or if that will only go to the stockholders.

Articles about Mountaintop Removal Mining and Valley Fills:

This is an editorial in the News & Observer from Dr. Matt Wasson, a staff person with our ally organization Appalachian Voices. In the editorial he takes Duke Energy to task for saying one thing to get a coal power plant approved and then reversing its position to fight legislation to prevent public utilities in NC from burning coal from mining methods that blowup mountains and bury streams.
This is an important article everyone should read. Here is further evidence that coal mine valley fills are seriously impacting the streams of central Appalachia. It's a story from Ken Ward Jr. of the Charleston Gazette about a recent study complete by the Federal EPA that finds valley fills from coal mines are eliminating mayflies in the creeks downstream of the fills. Mayflies are a key indicator species that lets scientists know if the stream is health or polluted.

While habitat degradation from mountaintop mining is what one sees on the surface, we found that chemical effects are quite pronounced and limit much of the expected biodiversity from what were once naturally rich, diverse Appalachian stream systems," [Greg] Pond said in the EPA news release.

And here is an article in the Appalachian New Express out of Pikeville that once again shows coal companies willingness to break the law and enforcement agencies willingness to let them do it. The Army Corps of Engineers has known about the illegal valley fills since March and so far they haven't lifted a finger . What would happen to someone if they stole a car, then called the police and told them they stole the car? Do you think the police would let them continue to drive the car around for 3 months?
By following this link you can read about an interesting effort by business leaders in southwest Virginia to oppose Dominion's proposed coal fired power plant. The news story also talks about the efforts of the Blue-Green Alliance, an alliance between the steelworker's union and the sierra club, to propose Virginia invest in clean renewable energy rather than Dominion's dirty coal plant.

As a business leader in Virginia, an electric power consumer and concerned citizen, I strongly urge you to halt plans to build a controversial coal burning power plant in Wise County.

Articles about Energy:

I've had a few conversations recently with people who have questions about how a cap and trade system would work for limiting CO2 and other global warming Green House Gases. Here is an article from Catalyst, the magazine of the Union of Concerned Scientists that describes how a Cap and Trade system to limit CO2 would likely work in the United States. It should be noted that KFTC at this point does not have a position supporting or opposing a Cap and Trade policy for limiting Green House Gases. Here is a link to a web site describing who the Union of Concerned Scientists is and what they do.
It should be noted that a Cap and Trade system is not the only method being discussed to limit Global Warming Gases. Another system being heavily discussed is a CO2 Emissions Tax. Here is an article I found on the web site weathervane.rff.org that gives some well thought out reasons for why a CO2 Emissions Tax may be the best option not only for limiting Global Warming Gases but also for generating money to invest in safer and cleaner forms of energy production. The website is sponsored by a organization called Resources For the Future (RFF) and here is a link to their website describing who they are and what they do. Like the Cap and Trade policy, KFTC does not have a position supporting or opposing a CO2 Emissions Tax.

TECO notified about illegal valley fills

jerry — Wed, 11 Jun 2008 14:39:27 -0500

KFTC and the Sierra Club have sent notice to TECO Coal Company of their intent to sue the company for creating two large valley fills without a permit.

The letter, sent on Tuesday, accuses TECO subsidiary Clintwood Elkhorn Mining of violating the Clean Water Act by dumping its mining waste into Pike County streams and allowing it to remain there. The violation is near Fishtrap Lake.

A “Section 404” permit from the U.S. Corps of Engineers is required before a company may fill a stream. Clintwood Elkhorn has applied for this permit but it has not been granted.

“Clintwood Elkhorn's filling of the streams at issue in this letter before the Corps has considered the permit application betrays a reckless disregard for the rule of law,” the letter states.

“It's a slap in the face to the community members and to the enforcement departments,” said KFTC member Rully Urias, who lives near Fishtrap Lake. “It shows their total disregard of the laws in place to protect the environment and the people. And maybe they'll get a slap on the wrist for it."

Urias and Sierra Club organizer John Cleveland visited the site on May 22 and saw two valley fills and two ponds that were not approved on any permit. A followup conversation with Corps officials in their Sassafras, Kentucky office revealed that they were aware of this violation because Clintwood Elkhorn had self-reported it, but the agency has not acted.

“You can't do two valleys fills and say I didn't know. They knew what they were doing. It's definitely not a mistake,” said Urias. “I knew they did stuff like this, I just didn't think they'd be so bold about it. How often does it happen if they have a protocol for when it does happen?”