From working near and around harless Creek my heart goes out to these people.
now for the other part.does mining and road development have any control over how much it rains.only one person has that controll.i know they make runoff a little more but after it leaves the delevoped place what about the creeks being choked up with to small culvit pipe,to low of bridges and.people filling in to close to the creek bank.i could go on and on.the people around these creeks and hollows need to look at that before they blame someone else.not only in pike co but all over

Everyone's heart goes out to flood victims in Pike County, but it is well known fact that while strip mining doesn't create rain it makes its consequences worse for those residants living near those mining areas. Our friends in Raleigh County, WV are all too familiar with what has just happen in Pike County. Like BP, coal companies need to be held accountable for the damage they cause and compensate their victims.

can strip mining be blamed for the flooding in Madison Co and Carter Co and Lexington the other day

Oh, come on, F.

You know it can't.

But,for example, we're pretty sure that guns can be pretty lethal despite the fact that some people who die haven't been shot by guns.

We have worse flooding problems in communities with strip-mining and heavy logging than similar communities that have trees and other vegetation to keep the soil together and soak up water.

It doesn't mean there's not flooding in other places too - it just means the flooding is much worse because of strip mining.

Not that it matters, but I live in Lexington and I'm not at all sure that there even was any flooding here. I can't find a news story that mentions it.

maybe you didnt want to look hard enough
http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/98964294.html
http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/98917039.html
how does anyone know mining does cause more flooding.i can see how it can but also making a big shopping mall can also.if no study was done before a place is mined or a shopping mall was put in how do we know they caused it to be worse.

My point, F, is that it wasn't big news here and it's pretty tiny compared to what's happening in Eastern Kentucky.

Of *course* large scale construction, parking lots, etc. can produce some flooding - but on no where near the same scale as strip-mining.

The Starfire mine alone is the size of Lexington - and that would have to be one big mall parking lot.

You just said that you can see how mining causes more flooding, so don't give me the "how can mining companies control over how much it rains?" BS.

Get some perspective - People lost their homes and some of them lost their lives to flooding and a part of the reason it happened is the coal industry - and they're profiting from cutting the corners that causes this damage.

Hi F,
There are a number of studies that illustrate the flooding increases in relation to MTR, including 5,000 page environmental impact study on the MTR and valley fills.

I hiked up to the head of this holler, and there were clearly issues with ponds not holding back the water that rushed down the barren hill side. The 2 people quoted in this blog post are folks who worked in the industry their whole lives and also see the connection.

oaky if you ask me Lexington and other big cities is one big shopping mall with the blacktop streets and shopping malls toagather.when a mine they base their ponds and other stuff on a 100 water study.i am sure you know this.okay have we ever got 6 inches of rain in 6 hours ever in the last hundred years.mining can cause more runoff i agree but if there is more rain how can it be controlled if it hasnt happened before
okay now to harless creek.i know that creek was choked to death.i worked on that strip mine on the right as a reclamation contractor and i drove harless creek to get up there.i saw house or trailor set beside the creek with not enough room to let water do its thing if needed.wonder where thier permit from Army Corp to get so close to the creek.everyone is supposed to have a permit and it says certain size pipe,bridge or how close you can get.if this creek wasnt chioked so bad when the flooding been as bad.if the water had someplace to go would it washed out everything.water is going somewhere and no one can do anything about it.if a house or car is in its way its going to.got to water have room to go and if it doesnt it will take whatever is in the way withit

Quick question, should the state bear some of the responsibility for the failure of the ponds? These ponds have to be designed for a 25yr storm and in most cases should show worse case scenarios. What happened? Im not sure what the average rainfall for a 25yr flood is for the area in question, but I would be curious to know if the actual rainfall was more than the pond was designed for. Were the ponds up to date on inspection reports, certifications, etc? Did the state require the applicant to run a breach analysis? If so, what were the parameters? If not, why? The list can go on and on.

My opinion is, enforcement & inspection needs a swift kick in the rear! The state has no reason to allow any company to build something that doesnt work or puts lives @ risk. In no way am I trying to exonerate the coal company, I feel part of the blame rest with the state.

i dont know about the ponds but reclamtion was finished over 5 years ago.the ponds should have been took out according to plan.if they wasnt there may be some bond left.they can be left in if land owner wants them and takes on all responsabilty for them.tell you what some of the residents did while we was working they ran a 4 wheeler in one of them and started to dig the pipe up to drain it so they could get it out.dont think they made it.they took one of our dozers one time just to make a 4 wheeler road and after they got done run it over the hill.luckly nothing was damaged

Todd,

I totally agree that a big piece of the responsibility lies with the state.

I think most if not all KFTC members would also agree with 'ya.

had a good laugh over that one Dave.why push more laws on the coal mine instead of trying to get the state to do thier job they supposed to do

Thanks to Dave and others who further articulated the points about mtr and flooding. And when you grossly alter a landscape in any county, you get dire results for people and animals. And yes, the state does deserve a kick in the pants for its deriliction of duty to the citizens, especially eastern Kentuckians and that includes everyone meaning miners at both UG and surface facilities and their families. The elites of the industry have too much control over state affairs and the industry exploits workers as it has for over a century. It does so ideologically as well as F's comments illustrate. And as the industry blows mountains to bits and does little to ameliorate the consequences of doing so, the reality is we are running out of coal. What then? Jobs, jobs, jobs ... green jobs are forever and currently we have a chance to diversify central Appalachia's economy. It is very possible as other states and countries have already demonstrated. The people .. all the people of Appalachia deserve better than they are getting.

You do realize that "the state doing their job" includes actually holding coal companies accountable to existing laws.

When coal companies illegally jeopardize people's lives, part of the blame lies with the state for not stopping them - no doubt, but let's not forget who's actually breaking law.

You can have a "good laugh" about all of this if you want, but again - *Get some perspective.* People lost their homes and some of them lost their lives.

I do care about the lost of life and property but you dont see me using it to get my point across.i dont see anything about the floods in Carter Co where a lady lost her life and homes was damaged.what about Madison Co and everywhere else homes was damaged.My laugh was about how you stated it was a lot of the states fault when you say stuff about coal all the time not trying to get the state to do its job.when something has to do with coal doing something wrong you all are all over it like a fly on ,,,,.

As you may be aware, part of what we try to do is get better enforcement of the existing law. We are also working for better laws when the existing laws are not sufficient to protect us. I think the question is why are citizens put in the position to have to push for either? Why is enforcement such a problem? Why aren't the companies trying to be better neighbors? Why don't we have other options?

F, are you saying that the drain was plugged and folks were trying to fix the problem themselves?

no the drain wasnt plugged.they was trying to dig the pipe and spillway out to drain the pond to get the 4 wheeler out.if it would have been stopped up we would have fixed it.
enforcement of the law is not a problem.its being one sided thats the problem.the miners see all this stuff against us and not the logging,gas,highways,shopping malls,farming and could go on and on.i know going to get mining does the most damage but does it.if we add up all the miles of highway,concrete parking lots would it be the most damage.

Sorry I misunderstood your previous comment. I imagine you worked hard to make sure that the reclamation on Harless Creek was done as well as possible. However, there was nothing to hold the water back, and the ponds didn't work. I realize that we can only expect so much out of a construction of a pond, but it seems hard to imagine that we are having 50-year floods every couple months across our region.

KFTC HAS worked on logging, oil/gas, road development, siting of commercial developments, and factory farms...in addition to mine safety, hazardous waste issues, welfare reform and more. A lot of the laws on the books are because affected citizens came together and organized. A lot of laws need improving too, and if people want to work on those issues, folks can come together and work on that as well.

I think now we have the best chance in decades to build a better economy here in Eastern Kentucky. In the meantime, we need to make sure that all corporations do right by people.

I, too, feel for all the communities affected by these floods.

It sometimes seems easy to find "facts" that support both sides of an argument and get trapped in back and forth of the whole thing. As someone said - maybe Todd - what we could really use is dialogue about the reality and the solutions.

To have this dialogue, I think we have to start from the reality that people experience everyday and also to look for and discuss the best "facts" we can find. In terms of the best facts we can find - from my view, these come from scientific studies. These studies are as close to objective as we as humans can get.

Related to flooding and mining, there are at least a few studies I know about that link strip mining, especially MTR, to increased flooding. You can find the citations to those studies in the summary article:

Mountaintop Mining Consequences, Science journal from January 2010
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/sci;327/5962/148?maxtoshow=&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=mountaintop+mining&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

There are also several dated studies from the 60s and 70s that documented the impacts of surface mining on ecosystem's natural ability to cope with heavy rainfall in eastern Kentucky. The age of the studies does not devalue the science to me - but instead tells me that we knew the impacts of this type of mining on communities long ago.