Keep on message and don't fall into the trap of behaving like the coal industry. The message is "follow the law." Enforce the law" Keep to the facts.

I am with you all in spirit.

Excuse me, Mr. Silver but don't you teach at a local college? Hmmmm,I believe many of the students' parents are coal miners, which funds your salary.So put some thought in where your money comes from.

These hearings are just a formality. The decision has already been made to continue the NW21 permit process. EPA will state that they will continue to monitor the permit process and then revaluate the NW21's in another couple years.

i just got out of a meeting in Central KY. I wish I could be there with y'all. Give 'em hell and speak truth to power.

So far everything I've read makes these hearings sound like the same ole same ole. Hopefully I'm wrong but they already sound like decision have been made and this is just a mock trial to pacify dissidents. I'll be at the Big Stone Gap hearing on thursday with App Voices and SAMS.

The only difference between NW21 and IP permits is the public comment. They both have to go through the same agency review. So the review process is exactly the same.

Yeah but it's a start, a small victory.

Way to go, Doug Doerrfeld and Mary Love!

You rock. :)

Some needs to tell Mr. Lyle he had a chance to comment on the permit during the SMCRA process before it ever gets to the Corps. All Corp permits go through the same environmental review no matter what type of permit IP, NW21, NW49,or NW50. We have used and been issued all of these.

Excellent showing tonight. It won't be long until we can finally defeat the coal industry and move on to defeating the water treatment plants of the state.

With due respect, Michael, none of that made any sense.

To be clear, the goal is not to "defeat" the coal industry - and I can't really guess at where you're coming from with respect to water treatment.

thank you for providing updates.i wish there had been no heckling or anything like that.

Amazing turnout. KFTC by my guess (sorry kftc, no scientific data was compiled before I made this assumption) had 100 to 150 compared to at least 4000 coal supporters. Im sure KFTC, will disagree, but alot of great points were made by the coal supporters. Adventure tourism, which needs more press, seem to be a hot topic. The other topic coal supporters brought up, that surprised me, was the issue of straight pipes. Alot of different employment numbers were brought up, although im not sure where these came from. I dont remember who made the statement but someone mention we had 6500 registered Surface Mining Cards.

As to the posters or signs being removed. Please state the facts. They specifically asked everyone (that included everyone who passed through the entrance, unless KFTC was able to use some special entrance) to not bring in signs. Plain and simple. The coal industry distributed thousands of signs that had to be discarded before entering the arena.

It was a great night to support the miners and families. We can only hope that USACE will use some common sense and keep the men and women of Appalachian working! God Bless the Coal Miners!

saw on WYMT news Miller brother Coal laid off 85 workers and cut the rest to 3 11 hour shifts.dont know if it was due to bad coal market or no permits.this is a great reduction in pay and being able to live a good lifestyle.i know my company cut us back in May i think to 10 hour shifts instead of 12.made a $300 differance in my payday but glad to be working still.can KFTC help them in anyways.havnt got an answer on my other queston yet

Perhaps I have no right to comment, given my residence in Western Kentucky, but with due respect, I don't think that KFTC (or anyone who is fighting for the well-being of Appalchians) is advocating the unemployment of working families. We are fighting for the hard-working miners of Appalachia just as much as the coal industry is -- but perhaps under different terms. Clean, renewable energy is an investment that would provide sustainable jobs as well. Coal mining doesn't have to be the only option.

In fact, I would argue that renewable energy may be more lucritive than mining, in certain situations. A wind farm, for instance, could employ a worker their entire lifetime, whereas jobs at a mining site will expire as soon as the resources of that mountain have been exhausted.

...if in fact that was even the point you were getting at. But thank you for pointing out the fact about the sign confusion. That was helpful for those of us who weren't able to make it out.

Thanks Doug, Mary, Lyle, all the KFTC members and otherwise for speaking out on this crucial day. The night is long and we have much work ahead of us. Just got to keep pushing the bear. Pizza UP!

all my love.

KFTC members make me sick!!!!!!!! These are the very same people or off spring...That spit in our Marines faces when they come back from war and call them baby killers.

IT IS TIME TO STAND UP COAL INDUSTRY!!!!!!!

Tom - What makes you say that?

KFTC doesn't even have a stance on foreign policy /military.

As a soldier myself, I'm pretty sure "spitting on soldiers" is entirely or practically entirely an urban legend.

So this seems like a wild and baseless accusation that doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking in the first place.

First of all I served in the military, the ARMY to be exact and my father is a Gulf War Veteran, so don't you dare put me down like that. I served my time in the military watched my dad go off and serve his time as we moved from town to town and was proud. I live in Eastern Kentucky and I am being buried by this "overburden" and am having to bathe my children in arsenic water because our great representatives turn the deaf ear b/c no one wants to put blame where it is due. I think the Army Corps of Engineers needs to not be rubber stamping these permits and take a good look at them. Why is the coal industry so afraid of the corps just taking a better look at these permits obviously they know what they are doing is wrong!!

First off, thank you for the military service you and your father provided for our great country. You and your father are the reason we have the chance to debate issues such as MTR.

Its tragic that you are dealing with arsenic water and I certainly offer my sympathy to your family.

Its not the fact the coal industry is afraid of the Corps taking a harder stance on this permit. Its the uncertainty that surrounds it. We have no way to plan for permits. We dont know if its going to take 6 months to get a permit or 3 years. Regardless of what industry it is, the Federal Government should have a better permitting process. They have no real form to go by, the guidelines are very vague and can be interpreted various ways. Thats not right!

Todd

Tom, I am all for eco-tourism, adventure tourism, and heritage tourism. However, I think interest in these industries give us yet another reason to STOP MTR. Eco-tourism is based on the natural environment, not environmental devastation. Knott Co. knows- despite what many say- that the tourists will come for the mountains, not the MTR sites. If you go to Perry Co., you will see a sign that says something to the affect of, "Come Experience the Unbridled Spirit of the Kentucky Mountains" and then it says "Knott Co." It is totally backwards and nonsensical to use our mountains in an effort to bring in tourists, while simultaneously blowing up those very mountains and supporting MTR, which permanently decimates them. Tennessee folks know their mountains are their ticket to bringing in tourism. Our mountains- if we’d leave them be- could be ours.

I heard someone at the hearing (an MTR supporter) say that trails are what bring in tourists. It seems to me that any Appalachian native would know that you can build a trail across a mountain without leveling it. I've walked across many trails that were on mountains that had never been blown up. My ancestors walked across trails over the Appalachian mountains before MTR was ever active here. Trails and mountains are not incompatible. MTR isn’t necessary to make a trail- not even close- and I'd MUCH rather hike across a mountain before MTR, than afterwards.

Also, no one travels half way across the world to see these golf courses everyone brags about. Golf courses are a dime a dozen- you can find them all over the place. People will travel further to see something unique. The Appalachian mountains are the oldest mountain range on Earth and the second most bio-diverse region on the planet. THAT will draw more people than a commonplace golf course. Also, our unique culture will draw more people. I have heard people from other states talking about how much they love our mountains and our culture. They will come here for those things, not our golf courses and MTR sites. Besides, we have leveled a lot of land- if you want another golf course, put it on the land that has already been destroyed. First, however, ask yourself how many golf courses one place even needs.

I don't agree with straight piping, but it doesn't make MTR any better. This seems like an attempt to divert attention away from one issue and onto another.

If you really want to keep Appalachians working, we need to bring in new jobs, not fight economic diversity. The coal will run out, and we will be left with nothing. Our people have felt forced to work for the coal industry for too long. This was true before I was ever born, and it's true today. We need choices, and we need them before the coal runs out and we've destroyed everything else.

My apologies- my eco-tourism comment was to Todd, NOT Tom.

With that said, this IS to Tom.

Disclaimer: My apologies to everyone about the length of this, but I heard enough of this at the hearing, and I don't want to bite my tongue now that I have the chance to respond to it.


Tom, my cousin served in the Vietnam War and he was- *gasp*- a Marine. He is also a staunch Republican. I say this, since many folks claim all people opposed to MTR are liberals and Democrats. He is against MTR. His wife and daughter- who are VERY proud of his military service- are ALSO opposed to MTR. They have never called him a baby killer, nor spit in his face. I wonder if you'd have the gall to tell him to his face that HE spits on the Marines. Did you honestly believe that there weren't any of the U.S. Marines who disagreed with MTR? They aren't all the exact same, as I'm sure you know. They are individuals.

The truth is, the many stereotypes people try to place on us, in an effort to divide us from others- making everything Us vs. Them- are faulty and they create false divisions. I know liberals and conservatives, democrats, republicans, and independents, Appalachian natives and outsiders, people with miners in their families (both underground and surface), people who were miners themselves (even surface miners), and people who are currently miners, that have all told me they opposed MTR. So, we are not all the same. While I have never served in the military, I have also never spit on someone who has. Neither have either of my parents, nor any of my grandparents.

At the hearing, I heard so much talk about how everyone's ancestors had served in the military- well, so have mine. They talked a bit about freedom and said that people should be able to do what they want to with their own land. Well, first of all, these coal companies DISRESPECT the private property rights that the speakers were saying they supported, and they always have. They have stolen people's land. Even in instances when the companies owned the mineral rights, why should that make it okay for them to destroy the surface land that someone else owned? They should have to tunnel beneath the surface to get it- because they do NOT own the surface. Sometimes these lands have been in a person's family for generations. When these people's ancestors sold those mineral rights, they never expected this, and we both know it.

On top of this, if what you do to your land affects your neighbors' air, water, health, etc. on THEIR land, then YES, it becomes PUBLIC business. Yes, we should be free, but not free to harm one another, and the law generally agrees that freedom should not include freedom to harm others or obstruct their basic freedoms and rights. We should be free as long as exercising our rights doesn't involve trampling on the rights of others. I'd also like to mention that when we die, we're all going to be outsiders, and what is your land now, will be someone else's. Maybe we should consider what kind of a legacy we are leaving.

Some of the workers in these companies have told me that they support our work against MTR, but they can't publicly support us or they will lose their jobs (underground miners). What about their freedom of speech? Don't they deserve the right to speak without being terrorized with the threat of job loss? I am not saying all underground miners feel this way- I know some do not- but some do, and they have told me so. These companies know it will be the worker's word against their own, so they can use fear tactics. What about the freedom and rights of miners in the old days when their payment only bought them stuff at the company store, and the companies did this because they knew locals were desperate and thought they could get away with it? What about the rights to clean water, clean air, and a diversified economy, etc.?

Back to freedom of speech- Not only have companies threatened people with job loss for exercising their freedom of speech, but many of the coal supporters (or at least a noisy portion of them) seemed to spit in the face of freedom of speech at the hearing. After so many MTR supporters spoke of the importance of freedom, and of their ancestors who were involved in wars, when our first speaker got up, the opposition was so loud (this is not to everyone- only those who behaved this way), that we couldn't hear her until they were forced to tone it down. What about her right to speak and be heard? Where was the great concern for freedom them? What about democracy then? When I got up, before I ever even said a word, I heard someone shout, "Don't let her speak!" What about freedom of speech then? Do freedoms only apply to the people they agree with? Is freedom of speech only available to certain citizens, and not others?

I do support freedom and the rights of people- the rights of people to not have their land stolen and destroyed, the rights of people to not be forced off their own property, the rights of people to clean water and air, the rights of people to have choices in their economy instead of one job that owns the whole region, and the rights of people to speak (outside of inciting a crime against an individual or harassing someone)- even if I disagree with what they have to say and even if you disagree with what they have to say.

Have you read any of my comments? Im agreeing we need economic diversity! I dont deny that. Im not fighting or voicing my concern on adding more jobs. If you have read any of my comments on this blog, Im for the right to work. Im against the suspension of the NWP 21 for the simple fact that companies cannot adequately plan. The coal companies have no idea when they may get a permit and without them they will lay off workers. Im all for the Corps doing their job and reviewing permits, just give the coal companies a set form and some kind of idea on timing.

My opinion is we need coal in the short term future (10 to 15 years) to bridge the gap to alternatives. Why not take some of the coal severance money and provide incentives for Alternatives Energy? Heck lets give them since incentives to come to Appalachia to do some feasibility studies. Lets look to build factories on these old strip jobs. I agree more can be done and we do need choices.

When you talk about history and heritage you are preaching to the choir. Ive lived it, my roots run as deep here as anyone. Im not going anywhere, Ive spent just as much time exploring this hills as anyone. MTR is an emotional subject and i know for certain, my emotions get the best of me sometimes but we dont make good sound decisions based on human emotion.

For me, working in the coal industry was my decision. My dad and mom tried every way in the world to keep me from it. I guess you could say that energy related work is in my blood. My dad has worked 35 + years in the coal industry and my mother worked 30 years in the Natural Gas business. I have multiple aunts and uncles that work in both industries. My great grandfather worked 40 years in the Natural Gas industry. Ive worked on Gas Wells, Oil Wells and in the Coal industry. I love it!

Todd, as I was looking through KFTC's platform, I saw this plank, which I've pasted below, which reminded me of your question:

"We support the collection of coal severance taxes on every ton of coal mined and demand an increasing return of severance tax funds to promote sustainable economic development in coalfield counties; we call for an increase in the severance tax rate and the creation of a community-based process to determine how funds are spent."

You question is: "Why not take some of the coal severance money and provide incentives for Alternatives Energy?" It's good to ask this of a non-profit social justice organization working on these issues, but I think it would be even more effective to be asking this of the your elected representatives. The folks in the General Assembly are the ones who have the answer to this question. They are the ones who can say why the severance funds are not providing renewable energy incentives.

If you do ask this of them, I'd be interested in hearing the response.

Meredith,

Everyone should have the right to speak out.

Have you ever heard "Every Action has an equal or opposite reaction"? While your intentions are well founded, you are nonetheless, affecting the livelihood of the miners.

You state "In fact, I would argue that renewable energy may be more lucritive than mining, in certain situations. A wind farm, for instance, could employ a worker their entire lifetime, whereas jobs at a mining site will expire as soon as the resources of that mountain have been exhausted."

May be? What are you basing this on? How can you make such a comment without having a single renewable energy job available in Eastern Kentucky?

Wind Farms? Are they a viable option in Floyd County? How many people are they going to employ? Over 4000 miners came out last night, some have already been laid off and the remaining ones will be by the end of the year unless the company's can obtain permits.

Thanks,
Todd

While it's true that an announcement was made at the entrance about not having signs, I saw on several occasions that security did not take signs from Friends of Coal folks, and signs were taken from members when they weren't being held--these signs also served as factsheets on the other side. Later on, I saw that the security guard in our section was carrying around a Friends of Coal shirt, so, from what I saw, at least, it didn't seem like the rules were the same for everyone.

Beth,

I witnessed on 4 occasions, Friends of Coal signs being removed by security. Now, was it all fair, of course not. But KFTC, does not get to be the victim in this case. This is a non issue that KFTC, decided to comment on and claim to be a victim.

Thanks Todd, for letting us know.

anyone can get a surface mining card you don't have to work on a job to get a surface card all you have to do is take a test so that does not prove how many people are working on surface jobs.

I live in Pike County and I was unable to attend but was with KFTC in spirit. I am proud of all who went and represented me and the rest of Kentucky

Very True. I guess its just like drivers license. Anybody can get one.

Why would any one get a surface card unless they had intentions on working on a surface mine? Would you get one just to put in your pocket and pull out on occasion? I know I got mine to use for work.

Im also very proud of the Coal Miners who came out and supported me and the rest of Kentucky!

well I know that most security guards get them in case they have to work on any mine site. I also people that have them b/c they had them for working but either did not get a job or left the job but still keep them renewed to have them, ya know. My husband has his surface card still and he doesn't work in the mines anymore but he likes to keep it up to date b/c he went through the training.

Thanks for helping me prove my point.

Every scenario you mentioned, the people either have worked on a strip job or planned to. Your husband is the exception and I would venture to say that less than 1% of the 6500 issued surface cards fit into that category. People do not get surface cards just for the sake of having them.

Todd

Thanks, F.

And much-agreed.

Democracy works best when we all listen and make space for everyone to speak.

Dave and everyone,

Please remember these facts.

We do not live in a democracy but a republic.

Freedom of speech has no basis in any non-governmental area. Try preaching something in a company meeting sometime. You can and will get fired...

We used to have a saying 40 years ago "Ban Mining and let the bastards freeze in the dark. I spent 25 years mining iron ore on the Marquette range. The Tilden mine starte dat elev 3,300 and will be exhausted when it reaches 500 feet below sea level.

Most mining companies are responsible companies and obey the laws as they exist today. Wishing there were more constrictions placed on mining does not make it true, changing the law does that. How much are YOU willing to pay for all that restriction?

Good Luck everyone ... Let's see what government does with healthcare costs and then we can discuss what organization is better equipped to run our US companies.

Use Google earth and type Ishpeming, MI and go just south of town. That hole is the Tilden, and I can tell you from town you don't even know it's there. 8 million tons of pellets per year produced to keep the US's steel requirements fulfilled.

Surface coal mining is our past, present and continues to be our future.

Until we run out of coal. And then our children will ask us why we permanently destroyed the land to make money for a few years.

Then there really won't be any options left for Eastern KY. No beautiful mountains for "adventure tourism" or wind power. No clean water. Just nothing.

Where is the wind power? Care to provide the information on who is installing a Wind Mill for power generation? I would be very interested in any information you can provide.

Todd

Hey Todd,
There are others that are more qualified than me to answer this question but I suggest starting here:
http://www.kftc.org/blog/archive/2008/09/24/benham-could-set-example-in-dealing-with-energy-problem/?searchterm=benham

I appreciate the link Colette and ive read a couple articles similar to this one from various news outlets. People throw the phrase "Alternative Energy" around like its candy. No one is actually building these structures, only planning. Planning is admirable, but it doesnt fully address the situation with out of work miners. Im interested in finding articles where actual, for profit companies are seriously looking at developing some of these alternative energies.

Thanks again!

Hey Todd,

I understand your gripe that you don't see enough information about actual companies reaching out to Eastern KY and doing tangible work, but I think this is something we should all work together on. We are just a non profit and projects like Benham can show profit companies that this is possible in Eastern KY. Unfortunately, we aren't these companies so we can only do so much in pushing to make this happen. Transitioning off our old energy models is a huge change and will take some pushing before it becomes a reality. There's a lot more information I've come across, including where this has been successfully done in other regions of the US, I'll try to share as they come up. Here's another link to check out about the potential of wind.. though it's not KY: http://www.coalriverwind.org/

There is also a lot of staff with KFTC that are more qualified to answer these questions that you could contact directly via this site and I definitely encourage you to do so!

Colette,

Thanks for the link! It looks familiar and I will spend the next couple of days reading through the information.

Todd

Here's another link to an interesting and really clear graphic about why it is a lot harder than it should be to transition from a fossil fuel based economy to a renewable one. It illustrates how the playing field just isn't level:

http://www.eli.org/pdf/Energy_Subsidies_Black_Not_Green.pdf

It shows the amount of government subsidies on the federal level to four energy areas: coal, carbon capture and storage, renewables, and corn ethanol. These completely lopsided subsidies and spending are on the federal level. The same chart for KY would be even more "black" and "brown," and a lot less "green." So while KFTC can't go out and put up the windmills and solar panel manufacturing plants as a non-profit social justice organization, what we can do is work to make sure the playing field is more even for those people who want to start such (and other) sustainable business. That's why we come up with concrete plans to share with decision-makers as we work to implement them, and that's one reason we have the High Road Initiative: to advocate for policies made by local lawmakers and those in Frankfort that make our vision for a sustainable Appalachia more of a reality, policies that would make the green section of that chart a bigger piece of the pie, policies--if they were in place--that would make it easier to answer your question, Todd. When we have the policies that support renewable development in Kentucky, we will be able to say: Look, here, and here, and here, are examples of wind turbines and solar collectives and cities utilizing geothermal, etc. That is (a part) of our vision. That is what we are advocating and working for. You are invited to advocate for these same things with us too.

Todd, about your question about windmills, here is another link! Here is an article about the wind farm that has just been given the greenlight for construction in Wise County, VA, which is just across the mountain from Letcher and Harlan counties, and very similar to KY: http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009/09/12/wise-county-gives-green-light-for-green-energy/

This was just about a month ago, and here is the main quote from the article:

"The first of two large-scale wind turbine farms proposed in Southwest Virginia by Dominion and BP Wind Energy North America has received a green light for construction.

"The Wise County Board of Supervisors, without discussion, approved a zoning change to allow Dominion Virginia Power and BP Energy to develop a wind-energy project involving 50 to 60 turbines that would produce 150 megawatts of power, the Associated Press reported Friday."

Sara,

As I said last night I would spend some time reading through some of these links and the www.wind-watch.org is fantastic. Ive literally spent hours reading through these media stories.

Let me say this, with the introduction of any new industry, whether it be Wind, Solar, etc..., I think we need to be cautiously optimistic. Someone has to play devil's advocate and look at the industry without "green tinted glasses". I dont have enough knowledge in the working of Wind Power, but one has to think about the possible problems. Ive included several articles that discuss problems, residents all across the US have with Wind.

Health Issues
http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009/10/15/health-check-at-waubra-wind-farm/

Landscape/Visual Issues
http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009/10/15/wind-farm-in-bingham-county-stirs-up-more-controversy/

http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009/10/15/rural-areas-no-place-for-huge-wind-projects/

Property Owners/Leasing Issues
http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009/10/14/landowners-say-eminent-domain-playing-role-in-wind-energy-project/

Indiana Bat Issues
http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009/10/14/hearing-on-tamarack-ridge-wind-project-rescheduled/

Costs Issues
http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009/10/15/wind-turbines-show-how-costly-free-energy-can-be/

Lets discuss.

Todd, I don't have time right this minute to have a lengthy discussion, but a couple thoughts have come to mind. (I'll also have to look at the links you provided a little later).

I shared the info about wind over in VA not as an example of the ideal, but simply to answer your question about "articles where actual, for profit companies are seriously looking at developing some of these alternative energies." It was something I knew about that came time mind.

Also, your comments about large scale wind made me think to go look at KFTC's platform again. Here's a couple planks of the platform that relate to these issues:

"--We support policies aimed at significantly increasing the development of energy conservation, energy efficiency, and clean renewable energy sources in Kentucky.

"--We seek energy policies that promote the development of community-scale, locally owned renewable energy sources, create local jobs, and help low-wealth households, enterprises, and communities to access energy efficiency measures and clean energy solutions."

(Here's the link to KFTC's platform: http://www.kftc.org/about-kftc/platform Knowing how active you are on this site, you've probably read it, but I'm throwing it out there for anyone else who hasn't.)

The big difference between what's going on in VA with BP and Dominion and our platform, is that the VA wind farm isn't "community scale" and it isn't "locally owned."

Finally, while we're diving into environmental effects of wind, there's another study that came out just recently that directly compares the affects on various forms of energy. The study itself is real wonky. Here's the meat of it from an article that distills it down:

"Based on real world operating experience of 339 wind turbines comprising six wind farms constituting 274 MW of installed capacity in the U.S., average avian mortality for wind appears to be about 0.269 fatalities per GWh.

"Based on real world operating experience for two coal facilities as well as the indirect damages from mountain top removal coal mining in Appalachia, acid rain pollution on wood thrushes, mercury pollution, and anticipated impacts of climate change, average avian mortality for fossil fueled power stations appears to be about 5.18 fatalities per GWh.

"Based on real world operating experience at four nuclear power plants and two uranium mines and mills, average avian mortality for nuclear systems is about 0.416 GWh.

"In terms of birds killed per electricity produced, nuclear power is slightly worse but comparable to wind energy, but fossil-fueled facilities are about 17 times more dangerous to birds on a per kWh basis. In absolute terms, since wind turbines produced a relatively small amount of national electricity in the United States in 2006, they may have killed about 7,000 but fossil fueled stations killed 14.5 million and nuclear power plants 327,000.

"Clearly, wind energy is not as bad for birds as many environmentalists make it out to be, and conventional resources are much more damaging to birds than is commonly believed."

You can read the article I quoted from above here: http://www.scitizen.com/stories/future-energies/2009/05/Save-Birds-by-Promoting-Wind-Energy/

And the scientific study is here as a PDF: http://www.spp.nus.edu.sg/docs/fac/benjamin-sovacool/Published%20Papers/Sovacool-Contextualizing_Avian_%20Mortality.pdf

More soon...

Sara,

The only issue I take from the Scientific Study is it lumps "Climate Change" as only coming from fossil fuels. Obviously, climate change is not 100% because of coal and other fossil fuel power plants. Cars, Businesses and eating beef can also contribute to climate change, at what percentages, I have no earthly idea. My point is, the article provides some good information on Mortailty rates in relation to Wind Mills & Nuclear but with Fossil Fuels not so much.

Thanks,
Todd

Here's a chart that might cross your eyes, but it useful for illustrating where greenhouse gases come from. According to this, fossil fuel energy (excluding transportation) makes up about 60% of the mix GHG mix:

http://www.wri.org/image/view/9528/_original

Also, the conclusion of that bird study puts itself in context, saying that it is only a preliminary look at the issue, but that it proves the issue deserves more study and discussion:

"While the rudimentary numbers presented here are intended to provoke further research and discussion, they none the less still
emphasize the importance of providing estimates of avian
mortality per unit of electricity generated. Metrics such as
fatalities per turbine, transmission line, or power plant structure per year, as well as estimates of the absolute number of avian deaths attributed to agriculture, communication towers, cats, and automobiles, tell us nothing about the avian fatalities involved with producing a GWh of electricity.

"Such metrics do not enable meaningful comparison among electricity sources, and are open to abuse from many strong opponents and proponents of wind energy. More than any thing else, this study is a call for equal and careful study and observation of the avian mortality associated with other electricity sources besides wind power so that the issue can be properly balanced and contextualized.

"Second, while the avian deaths attributed to fossil-fuel, wind,
and nuclear power plants do vary, they also imply that there is no
form of electricity supply completely benign to birds. The best
strategy for preserving avian wildlife, therefore, would be to
encourage the more efficient use of energy before any type of new
power plant or wind farm is constructed.

"Third, and perhaps more important, for it applies to many
types of assessment beyond the electricity sector, is the lesson
that the most visible impacts from a given technology are not
always the most egregious. Wind turbines seem to present a
significant threat to birds because all of their negative external-
ities are concentrated in one place, while those from conventional
and nuclear fuel cycles are spread across space and time. Avian
mortality and wind energy has consequently received far more
attention and research than the avian deaths associated with coal,
oil, natural gas, and nuclear power systems, even though this
study suggests that wind energy maybe the least harmful to
birds. The first-order estimates of avian mortality per GWh offered
here imply that fossil fuels maybe more dangerous to avian
wildlife (and nuclear power plants slightly more dangerous) than
wind farms, and they remind us that what can sometimes be
considered the most obvious consequence of a particular energy
system may not always be the most meaningful or important."

While the study may have over-estimated the impacts of fossil-fuel energy based climate change (though I'm not sure, it could have made that correction itself...I'll have to look closer at the background info it used), it certainly underestimated the impacts of deforestation due to mountaintop removal on bird deaths. It only took into account the deaths of the Cerulean Warbler, not any other species of bird. Again, proving what the author said, this is only a preliminary look that shows more study is warranted.

Windmills in near VA border? What about the only pair of nesting Ravens near Bad Branch Falls? What about the Indiana Bats?

Well, I didn't claim that there were existing windmills in Eastern KY. But I do know that flattening the land is going to eliminate all of the good potential sites for wind power.

Obviously, not all mountains in Eastern Kentucky can be mined, therefore, if such possibilities exist for wind power, identify them and try wind power. Ive spent alot of time on strip jobs and for the most part it seems more windy (no im not making this assertion as fact only based on experience). Does anyone know if any studies have been conducted for wind or even solar panels on these old strip jobs?

The PDF at the following link shows some of the problems with wind farms on strip jobs. It's titled: "The Impact of Strip-mining on Existing Wind Resources."

http://www.coalriverwind.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/impact_stripping_onwind.pdf

The short answer, according to this info from the folks at Coal River Mountain, is that removing the ridges of mountains with strip mining can destroy the viability of wind.

Im get ready to start reading through these links. I appreciate the info.

Thanks,
Todd

Have you ever thought about being able to work together with coal companies to reclaim the land to create better "wind" topography? Believe it or not, that would be ideal for someone wanting to do do something with the land, if you claim yourselves not to be anti-coal. I mean, the windmills are going to be a huge eyesore in the first plce. Might as well mine the coal out from under it first, then reclaim the land to "funnel" wind into certain key "windmill" areas. Wind blows much smoother, with less resistance and turbulance with smooth rolling hills instead of jagged, uneven, and unlevel land. That is proven.

Will this happen? I highly doubt it.

Wind is high risk field, the 60 windmills they building in Wise, VA can produce 150MW at full power at full wind speed. When asked how much power they actually expect these to be providing? They will be producing power only 30% of the time. Is that even worth the multi-million dollar investment? Will investors sink their money into such a claim? It will be hard to convince them!
Not to mention the bird studies currently going on as well, hawks, indiana bats, Ravens are just a few of the high-profile cases they will have to pass first. Will environmentalist buck when they find endangered species of bats on those ridges?

I am a saddened to see many of these comments. I am not sure where these folks are getting the notion that Kentuckians for the Commonwealth is some extreme-commie organization, but please allow me to disabuse of you of this notion. Many if not all of the members of KFTC from Eastern Kentucky joined KFTC not because of some extremist bent but because their lives had been directly and deleteriously affected by Mountaintop Removal mining. Whether they or their children were sickened by polluted air and water, their property encroached upon or altogether destroyed, or their home destroyed, KFTC members by and large are protesting because they have been personally effected. At no point have any KFTC members disrespected or dismissed any miner or his or her right to work. We will continue to fight for your right to have gainful employment - but we will also continue to fight so you and your children can have clean air and clean water.

Jason,

I do not consider KFTC an extremists organization and Im not sure which comments you are talking about that would insinuate such an allegation. You have the right to protest just as I have the right to voice my opposition to your opinions.

Todd

I think he's probably referring to Tom's post on Marine spitting above..and perhaps the heckling at the hearing...not your comments. I think most of us really appreciate you and F and other miners having the willingness to open the conversation. I know I do.

When are you going to lead the fight against straight pipes and dumps. The water is better in East KY now because of mining cleaning up old pre law sites than it was say 35 years ago. Think of all the old abandoned mine sites and highwall that has been reclaimed by modern mining. There has been thousands of miles of unreclaimed highwalls mined through and reclaimed in a responisble manner and the land and adjoining land improved in the last 30 years. Look at the all the wildlife that now thrives on reclaimed mine sites. When I was a young kid you never saw a deer or wild turkey. Look at the elk how well they have done because of mining. Beaver and bear populations are thriving. Blacksided dace are found in large numbers in stream that have had mining or activeming is ongoing. More streams in KY are listed as out standing waters than at any other time since SMCRA went into effect. Now tell me how is mining destroying the water in Eastern Ky.

last time I check poop did not cause ARSENIC in my well water!!

There are multiple sources of arsenic, from commercial everyday chemicals to NATURALLY occurring strata near coal seams (who's fault is that?). Have you ever thought that your well penetrated a coal seam below, which happens in nearly ALL water wells in Eastern KY. Do you have arsenic levels 5 years before mining, during mining and after mining?

okay but we had good well water for 30+ years before our well water went bad and that wasn't until AFTER the blasting started.

Do you know how blasting affected your well? Did you conduct a pre-blast survey to prove this damage? If you are within distance limitations the coal company is required to do this BY LAW to protect themselves, as well as the residents just in case something like this happens. That's why I asked if you had PROOF; not just word of mouth. I'm not saying you are lying, but I could also say I had a perfect life too until someone a mile away put off a blast and it blew my house of the foundation, broke windows, and dropped my well water. Let’s be a little realistic here. If you have proof of this, there should be NO problem getting it fixed. A coal company would gladly install a water filter treatment if there are legal proof that damage was done. It's already written in the laws, not changes necessary.
However, I highly doubt that blasting caused your problem. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to fracture rock, and to fracture rock enough to get surface drainage into a well is highly, highly unlikely. Most blasting typically occurs ABOVE drainage, and thus, are no way that "blasting" can get in your well water. If you have a problem, address it to the coal company and they will have a third party investigate it. Don't point fingers and start screaming and shouting unless there is proof. AND, like said before, there should be no problem getting it fixed if there is valid proof shown.

I wasn't able to attend last night's hearing, but I have such respect and admiration for those KFTC members who drove many hours in some cases to be the minority in a hostile environment. How intimidating it must have been to sit in a stadium full of people who misunderstand our motives and cloud the issue at every opportunity. As a native of Eastern Kentucky with many relatives who work for the coal industry, I respect the proud tradition of coal miners who risk their lives every day to provide for their families and provide electricity for our country. KFTC is on the side of these miners. We simply want the coal corporations to abide by the law. We are not anti-coal. We know that coal will be a part of the equation for some time, but we also know it can be mined without such destruction to our communities and their water supply. And as for the argument that mountaintop removal provides jobs, the truth is that deep mining provides many more jobs. The coal industry employs only about a third as many miners as it employed 30 years ago.

And, to set the record straight, KFTC is not strictly a group of environmentalists. We are a group of ordinary people standing together to address the problems affecting our communities, whatever those problems might be.

Mining companies are abiding by the law that is in place. What you are trying to do is change the law so that was is legal will be illegal. So how is doing what is allowed by law now not abiding by the law.

Amy,

As stated last night, 6500 people in the state of Kentucky hold an active Surface Miner Card. Which translate to 6500 jobs that are associated with surface mining. What other industry in Eastern Kentucky has that type of work force?

I am an ordinary young man, with a family trying to make a living and its becoming increasingly difficult. Ive lived only in Eastern Kentucky all my life (29 years) and I will raise my family here. I will stand up for my right and the rights of others, to work and make a living. Amy, im not that much different, only on the otherside of the fence.

Todd

Todd,
I wish you and all the other miners in EKy the best of luck. I don't think we're on opposite sides at all. I think we both want what's best for the mountains.

Funny, I didn't hear one comment made about someone's children being sick. I did however hear lots about the streams and even one about fish. Seriously are we supposed to value the life of a fish over our kids? Coal does provide income, homes, education,food, and all sorts of other things to the families of those that work in the coal industry.
We have lost all of our common sense in this country. You all want mountain top removal stopped because you want clean air and water. Then explain this to me: Why in the world were at least 5 members of your group drinking out of plastic water bottles? WE have heard as recently as last week about how water bought from stores is not regulated and is often times more contaminated than tap water. That friends was on the national news. And of course about 1 year ago we started hearing the horror stories of the chemicals in the plastic bottles and how they were related to causing cancer. Several of your members were outside smoking cigarettes. Is that polluting the air?YES!!! I think there are hundreds if not thousands of scientific studies that can back me up on that one. On another note one young woman that was outside smoking and polluting my air was singing into a cup"We won't stop until you get clean water" There's a decent pysch hospital in Perry Co. built on a reclaimed sight. You might want to check into that for her. Almost all of you had cell phones and at least one from your group had a laptop. How inconvienent it will be when you attempt to charge them and you can't because you have no power.It seems to be KFTC aren't sure what they stand for. If you want clean water and air, practice what you preach, ALL THE TIME!

Tonia,

I don't think you can make it that black and white. While smoking is a persona choice, where are our water comes from cannot be controlled. I also acknowledge that we all use coal for electricity because that is what is available, however, this doesn't mean there's no room for debate on alternatives. Many of us at KFTC are hoping that renewable energy will bring in more jobs with higher pay to Eastern KY and much energy is being spent to investigate and bring opportunities. They even surveyed Benham as a possible site for Wind Power. I don't think we are against you, we are just looking for new opportunities in the future that will benefit ALL residents of Eastern KY.

I totally understand your frustration and fear about job security. I also understand coal is a big part of the culture. The change will be gradual and may not always be easy, but it's essential. It would be inconsiderate and blind for us to not address and acknowledge your fears and concerns. However, I feel that many of the issues and injustices our members face in Eastern KY are considered acceptable losses.. and that too, is unacceptable.

Thanks for taking the time,

C

C,
Smoking is a personal choice, but what happens when I have to inhale it and I didn't make the choice to smoke? . Listen you and I could go back and forth on this all day long and still get nowhere. You don't even live in Eastern Ky. Worry about some of the things going on around your community. I have had enough of you radical people!! Please stop speaking about my culture, it turns my stomach. In addition stop speaking of my concerns or frustrations about job losses. You have no clue. I do not work in the mining industry. I went to college and earned my degree. I am however a realist. It amazes me the battles people choose to fight. You folks could surely come up with some other thing in the commonwealth to concern yourselves with. We are in a drug epidemic or haven't you heard? We have children that are unable to be fed on a daily basis. Did you know that or are you too busy worrying about some tree? We have kids Diagnosed everyday with Autism and Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. We have the lowest number of people with bachelor degrees in the country. We have thousands of children in foster care and we do not have enough homes. WE have thousands of children being raise by grandparents. We do not have enough Dr.'s to meet the demands of the people in Appalachia. We have HUGE numbers of teenage pregnancy. We have an illeteracy rate that should shame every Kentuckian. We have senior citizens saling their Rx. meds because they can't make ends meet. We have large numbers drawing disability checks that are very capable of working.
There is a whole host of social problems that perhaps your brilliant minds could work on. Mining is what people do here to keep things turning. I would bet my house on the fact that your a Democrat. Honestly what it comes down to is all of this liberal thinking has destroyed this country. It saddens me and sickens me all at the same time. You will get no more responses from me. I have had enough with the save the world mentality but the only world included is the land and trees, not the poeple that live in it!

Hi Tonia,
I appreciate your comment, and your frustration with the economic injustice that is hurting people in KY, especially in Appalachia.

KFTC absolutely isn't entirely concerned with the *people* living among the land and trees. We want our communities to be safe places, and we want people to be healthy. I hope you can take a look at our vision statement--"We are working for a day when...the lives of people and communities matter before profits. When communities have good jobs that support our families...When all people have health care, shelter, food, education...When children are listened to and valued...When discrimination is wiped out...And when the voices of ordinary people are heard and respected." We're all about people.

You're right that we need systematic change. We're working on changing the root economic injustice that's causing the problems that you've named--lack of foster care resources, lack of health care, lack of jobs, lack of effective drug rehab and prevention programs. I know you're not posting anymore, but if you're still reading, I hope you have a chance to check out our economic justice work and our high road work.

I had to bath my child in contaminated water for the first 3 years of her life with 130times the allowed EPA levels of arsenic in it, thankfully her doctor said it didnt affect her but that was probably b/c we knew the water was not safe to drink so I would make sure she did not try to drink her bathwater or put any of her bath toys in her mouth and I would cover her face when I rinsed her hair and such. again I do not have anything against coal mining. I do not agree w/ MTR and surface, the mining industry will not shut down if the Corps has to review permits, if they did then apparently the coal corparations don't care too much about their employees. if they are willing to lay off workers just so the big wigs still get their millions than that is sad.

Honestly, where do you get your information? The Core of Engineers is already backlogged 235 permits, the average permit takes about 2 years or more, after the bat, water, and other enviornmental impact studies. My husband's job has a year left on their current permit, once it's up he cannot work until the other permits are approved. That's why the miner's are being laid off and in danger of losing their jobs.

The 235 permits you speak of is not a backlog but a freeze put on by the Federal EPA in order to review the effects of Mountain Top Removal (MTR) on the streams and whether or not they are in violation of the Clean Water Act. Only MTR permits are affected. It does not take two years to get a permit, and the problem is that no individual Environmental Impact Statements have been required. This has resulted in the destruction of 87.5% of the streams in the Big Sandy (KY 2004 305b report to congress). We can do better than this. At one time before MTR 115,000 miners where employed, with MTR type mining the jobs fell to between 15,000 and 17,000 so the mining companies are the ones to blame for job losses along with the Federal EPA who let them break the law in the name of corporate greed. If we mine responsibly there will actually be many more mining jobs than today. But remember in study after study for over forty years mining has always increased poverty in Appalachia it is not the economic answer, over one hundred years of history has proven that. At the present time we must have coal, this too will change in the next thirty years as we reduce our carbon dioxide levels. Appalachia must start to move away from the coal economy, this will take many years but will be much more sustainable and fair to the people and land.

I will agree it does not take two years to get a permit but much longer I have had some submitted since 2004 that have not been issued and some have EPA approval to be issued and are still not issued and none of these permits are MTR all are contour strip and even a deep mine faceup. A NW21 goes through the same environmental review as an Indvidual permit the only difference is public comment. But the public has a chance to comment during the SMCRA permit process. No laws are being broken Public Law 95-87 allows for MTR, hollow fills and in stream sediment ponds. This law was issued in 1977 with the knowledge that this was to supercede the CWA of 1973. So MTR is perfect legal. What you are wanting to do is make what is now legal illegal. Surface mining our past, present and will continue to be our future.

Quite a night! KFTC members were awesome and courageous to speak in front of a hostile crowd, especially being outnumbered 30 to 1. Sure, there were some confrontations and some some name calling, but there were also some great conversations. I personally talked with two surface minors and we agreed that we had much more in common than we had differences. They both said that there needed to be more conversations in the coalfields, especially without the pressure from the companies and from the media - both of which make honest conversation difficult.
The miners also asked some tough questions about how we create new jobs for the next generation as we transition from a coal economy. Tough questions no simple answers except that we can do it by working together.

Martin,

What are you referring to with this subject line?

Im ready for a meeting, all you need to do is let me know when and where.

Todd

I just hit the comment button and website put in the subject line.

Sounds like everyone made it through the evening in one piece, which is good to know. I wish I could have been there myself but it's a long drive and anywy the afternoon was taken up with some other urgent KFTC work.

I really liked hearing Martin and Todd (apparently on opposite sides of the issue) talking about dialog and pointing out some examples of where it happened last night in spite of all the ruckus. Along with lobbying various officials for our points of view, we should seek opportunities for uncomfortable but valuable conversations with folks on the other side.

In many respects the coal issue reminds me of the tobacco issue. Assume for the sake of argument that the planet will be better off if it comes to an end. Still, we can't disproportionately place the costs of a decison to move away from coal onto the miners, who have been encouraged for generations to cast their lot with the industry.

A just transition from coal to greener energy has a lot of facets, many of which I don't know about yet, but I imagine one element has to be a "buy-out" of sorts, where the federal government gets involved. I know Kentucky farmers who have diversifed away from tobacco and really enjoy what they are doing now. I would like to see mining communites get serious support for analogous forms of economic diversification. I'd rather pay up front for this sort of program, rather than keep on dealing with the hidden external costs of the more aggressive forms of strip mining.

As for the coal industry exectives, they can take their 401k's and retire.

Peace and Good,
Homer

i know the coal industy might not provide me with a job butit has since 1975 with no real long layoffs but if some one will come and offer me a sure way to make a living at my presant rate till i can retire this is one coal miner they wont have to worry about but untill that day comes mining is all i know and what a lot of east ky folks know.to show i let my 3 sons go into another line of work.2 had to move to utah one to tn to find work in something besides coal.they are all 3 looking but i am still working

Homer,

Ive posted several comments over the last 5 months in regards to various topics on MTR and if you have read any of them, Ive stated over and over that Im for a diversified economy. The main issue I have is how swiftly KFTC and other anti-MTR groups are pushing a decision on banning MTR. As you can see in the comments of this blog, several members of KFTC claim they are not out to hurt the workers, but the bottom line is noone is able to get permits, therefore miners are being laid off. We need to slow down. I dont claim to have all the answers, but I would definitely contribute my thoughts and opinions if someone was willing to listen, however my opinion starts with continued upon coal. So im sure we will cancel each other out.

The one thing that irks me to no end about Anti-MTR proponents is the last comment you make "As for the coal industry exectives, they can take their 401k's and retire." Stop worrying about the executives and start worrying about the miners. If you would put as much energy and time into finding a viable job for our miners as you put into sticking it to the executives, we would all be much better served. The executives and investors will move onto new industries and the miners will be left with nothing.

As ive stated before, Kevin, Martin and any member of KFTC, Im ready to attend a meeting to discuss some changes, all you have to do is give me some time to schedule it and ill be there.

I am a supporter of the coal industry, it is the life blood of East KY. I to was at the meeting held in Pikeville lastnight and seen and heard the comments from both sides. My conclusion is this before causing a action against the coal industry (action) look for the re-action. We are going to work, and only work with the resources God has provided us, if not coal then what. The only other abundant resource we have is Trees. We will need to clear a lot to keep 6500 people employeed, but we will do what is necessary.

The sign issue, we where told no signs from the start, but one of your patrons held a sign that said "Not 1 more mine", this is a threat, no matter which way you look at it. Hey, I'm surprised the guy is still walking..

Bobby Coleman,

I believe the sign said "Not on more mile" - as in not one more mile of buried streams that destroy our water quality.

You'd have to stretch to find that very threatening.

But speaking of threats, you seemed to just indicate that someone holding a sign like that should be beaten to the point of not being able to stand - which is a pretty serious threat.

First,I'm not the violent type, and I don't work in the mines, nor will I. Several miners did see your sign(s), and where seriously offended. They do have a tendancy to over react at times.

Secondly, why ponder with someones' job, lifestyle. Concentrate on the things that need to be fixed. The EPA's purpose is to lead the nation's environmental science, research and education. Push to help find alternate fuel sources, (i.e. Ethonal Plant in Pike Co.). Assist in taking some of the coal miners out of the mines and put them to work creating E85 out of garbage. Hey the science is there, the opportunity is now or it will fall to the wayside.. And stop pushing something that would be harmful to the economy of East KY.

I really respected our Eastern KY membership that had the strength to stand up and speak yesterday. I also heard a coal trucker driver's wife talk about her fear of putting food on the table for her children, saw her cry from where I sat and felt really sad for her.

I think that the debate is putting miners and members against each other, but in reality we need to question our elected leadership together about why new opportunities are not being prioritized for Eastern Kentucky. Both sides have to understand each other's predicament. It's unacceptable for tons of people to lose jobs and not be able to feed their children. It's equally unacceptable that members have contaminated water, destroyed land, and depleting resources. Why do we think we should settle for either?

I've read the comments about how the industry has "improved water and wildlife" through reclamation. I know that you also can easily find on this website, real residents of Eastern Kentucky that aren't reaping benefits like that. I don't care if there is a percentage of success stories on reclamation if we have many who suffer regardless. Work together for your community, don't let these absentee owners and politicians divide your community!!

Colette,

If you dont care about a percentage of success stories on reclamation, then I dont care about those that have failed. Come on, we both now that for every job you claim is bad, I can find one that has been positive. These pissing contests will get us nowhere.

Ive lived in a small town in Floyd County my entire life. Im the 3rd generation to live on this property. Im proud of my heritage and as a young boy I spent almost every moment possible in the hills. I can remember when my dad and I would squirrel hunt and it would be a big deal to kill 2 squirrels! Excitement like you have never seen! Fast forward to 2009 and now its a total disappointment if we dont kill our limit! Yes, this property is on an old strip job (What animals on strip job?). When I was young we would drive to Owen County to hunt deer because deer was extremely rare in these parts. Now, I take my son up on the old strip job (Yep, more animals on a strip job) to watch herds of deer. As a matter of fact, I AM A REAL RESIDENT OF EASTERN KENTUCKY AND "WE ARE REAPING THE BENEFITS"!

Todd

Hi Todd,

Thanks for you response. I encourage you to read some of the stories of other Eastern Kentucky residents that have not been as fortunate as you. You care enough to come here and talk about this issue, I know you care enough to hear their story too. I don't think you stand to lose anything by acknowledging their losses and hardships. I definitely think that it is basic human decency. I would expect the same of our members, to acknowledge and consider your concerns, pride for your culture etc.

Thanks for taking the time,
C

Colette,

Believe me, ive spent more than my share of time sifting through and reading all of the stories on this site. I have no problem whatsoever in acknowledging those that have issues. With work being as slow as it is, I frequently visit several Anti-MTR sites to try and understand what they stand for. I have no issues with a group of people voicing their opinions! Its their right and I hope that never changes.

Colette, what do you do for a living? How many members from KFTC receive a paycheck via KFTC or other incentives? How many members of KFTC are retired?

Todd

Hey Todd,

I can only answer two of your questions fully. I am KFTC staff so that is what I do for a living. I applied for the job after interning with KFTC for a year while obtaining my Masters in Social Work. We have 6000 member statewide and no members are paid a paycheck. We have a staff of approximately 28 statewide that are paid. (This is also available on this website) There are a lot of incentives that are non monetary for being a member such as empowerment, community, and strength.. The only incentive I can think of that has monetary value are Leadership Development opportunities we give our membership like attending conferences, going to Washington DC to lobby,etc. However KFTC is a member run organization and our unpaid, volunteer committees and board make decisions around how the funding for that kind of thing is spent. Is this helpful?

I don't know how many of KFTC member are retired. I can tell you we have a lot of age diversity. Many are retired, many are very young, many fall in between.

I'm happy to know you took the opportunity to read some of the personal stories shared on this site. I also see that you've been very sensitive to many of our Eastern KY residents on this blog entry alone. I hope we can all start to have civil discourse and develop solutions together.

Thanks for taking the time,

C

I also wanted to add that we don't PAY members to attend conferences or to lobby, we just pay for the conference fee and transportation fees. Normally it's because there's an educational experience available. That may have come across a little confusing.

I know this was directed towards Colette but I would like to answer it too. I work for attorneys actually who feel much like you do Mr. Todd. I do not get paid to attend any meetings for events like the one in Pike County (where I live) and I go and speak out for my family to make sure one day my child can have clean water and air. I want her to have somewhere to raise her children someday. Again I have a Monday-Friday job and do not get paid any extra for standing up for my rights and my family's. If we are traveling a distances to get to a meeting or something we usually try to carpool or in some cases we get help on our travel expenses. but I have been a KFTC member for 5 years and have never received a "paycheck" for volunteer work

NWP #21 and other nationwide permits are essential to the mining industry. The mining industry must comply with 23 different environmental laws and regulations. Permitting of new or expanded operations is taking years to obtain the necessary permits. With more than 250 coal permits backlogged at the COE, some for two years or longer, the Corp proposes to eliminate one regulatory tool explicitly designed to avoid regulatory duplication and unnecessary delays. The Corp has failed to provide a plan for how the agency will handle the increased regulatory burden. The COE is simply not prepared to handle the increased workload that will result should NWP #21 be abandoned.
The COE has provided no scientific or environmental justification for eliminating the use of NWP #21. Further, the COE has provided no evidence of environmental damage or other public interest reason for eliminating the use of this permit, therefore, it appears the decision is driven by politics and not based on any concern with environmental protection. These type of decisions have an impact
The KY Coal industry employs over 17,000 miners and generates over 50,000 jobs in other areas of support. Ky exports 73% of its coal, bringing in over $3.5 Billion dollars into KY. Around 85 cents on each dollar stays here - wages, benefits, operating expenses, royalties, and taxes. The KY Coal Industry paid over $270.0 Million in severance taxes in 2008 in addition to the normal business taxes paid by all KY companies. The total revenue generated by the KY Coal Industry in 2007 was $4.9 Billion dollars. Almost 95 percent of the electric power in Kentucky is coal-fire generated. Kentucky’s electric power costs, in the industrial sector, ranked the lowest in the nation for the fourth consecutive year. Kentucky’s industrial power costs are over 15% lower than any other state east of the Mississippi River and over a third lower than the U.S. average. As a result of these low cost electric rates KY is the 4th
largest automaker, 3rd largest Aluminum producer, and the 3rd largest Stainless Steel Producer in the US. Coal drives KY’s Economic Engine.... The Obama Administration promised the American Public to make decisions based on Science. These type of decisions to consider elimination of NWP #21 are not science based they are decisions being made to change our energy policy and make us more dependent on Foreign Energy sources and their leaders. The decisions being made today cannot be made lightly these decisions will determine how and where our children and grandchildren live and what future battlefields they will fight and die on.

I live in Perry County, and I am proud that the Perry County chapter is one of the largest Eastern Kentucky chapters. KFTC is a member-run organization with over 6,000 volunteers across the state. I get frustrated when some people play up insider vs. outsider; coal miner vs. environment. Many of my friends have been directly affected from trespassing, to poisoned drinking water and subsequent health problems, and flooding. There are stories of that in different parts of Perry County, but we are all affected by this problem. I think we'd be served to have the coal companies going by all of the laws--both environmental and mine safety. Throughout the history of mining, the companies have always tried to divide our communities. Every time a law was being proposed either, we heard the same argument this is going to be the end of the mining industry? It's the same with this. How is better evaluation and public participation going to result in the end of an industry? We need to work together and create real solutions that provide good jobs all who want to in EKY.

Mining companies are obeying the rules what you want is to make what is now legal illegal. NW21 permits are not rubber stamped they undergo the same environmental review as Individual Permits. If people do not want mining do not lease their property to mining companies. Several KFTC members have leased their property for mining and their property is currently being mined.

Have you driven on the roads in EKY? Have you ever been to a mine? Have you ever been in a community below a strip job? If so, how can you say the mining laws are being enforced? Almost every coal truck I see is overloaded. We all know stories of miners fudging the air quality tests so they don't get in trouble by their bosses. 90% of the mine fatalities in the last 10 years were from mines that weren't following the law. The coal companies in my neck of the woods consistently release sludge and excess waste in the sediment ponds on the weekends, at the end of the day or during storms. Why? Because the companies can get away with it because enforcement won't come out. I could tell more stories but hopefully you get the point. There are also a number of different scientific studies that illustrate negative impact resulting from how they are doing the mining. Kentucky can do better.

I can take to surface mines that have been reclaimed and you can not even tell they have been mined. I can take you a trout stream in EKY where mining has been actively going on since 1996 where the water quality is exacty the same as it was before the mining began. Mines that are completely reforested. Mine sites where cattle are grazing. What you dont understand is the less weight coal trucks haul the more trucks are on the road going faster than they are now with lighter loads thus greatly increasing the chance of accidents. Also I travel the roads of EKY daily for more than 30 years.

To answer your questions.........
1. Yes, I have lived in East KY my entire life. And there is nothing else better than driving East KY roads in a sports car!
2. Yes, both surface and underground. The question may be have you ever been to a mine and actually see what these men do?? I'm sure you have been to an active mine taking pictures like the typical you see blasted all over the internet. Have you ever been to a road construction site? They look remarkably similar, but do I see people protesting those? NO and I wonder why? It's because you actually get some use out of it, and you don't want to protest something that will better your life by making a trip 20 minutes shorter. Hmmm..... so.... why don't you cut your power off and practice what you preach. Keep in mind, this NWP21 doesn't ONLY affect surface mines; it affects deep mines as well. Have you ever been in a deep mine before? Those men (and some women) do backbreaking work every single day to provide ultimately for YOU. You all really have no idea what comes from coal, it's not just 100% electricity either. How much metal is used to build your green gas sipper? Where does that metal come from again? Does metal grow on trees?
3. Yes, I live in a community that has active mines and reclaimed mine sites all around. I have been living here my entire life.
3. (Since so) The mining laws are being enforced because that's what Kentucky State Environmental Inspectors DO! They visit, BY LAW, every single permit and do inspections. If there is something that does not meet the law, a violation/fine is issued and the problem is addressed by the coal company. Maybe if you actually worked for a Coal Company you would see what sort of measures is taken to protect the environment and meet regulations. I honestly think you would be surprised.
Coal truck statement..... WRONG. Every single coal truck that leaves a mine property is weighed by certified scaled and cannot by law leave the property until they meet DOT weight limitations. If they do leave overloaded (which I'm not saying that it doesn't happen), then that falls into the DOT officers hands.
Miners do NOT "fudge" air quality tests. They are completed by an outside, 3rd party company just so comments like that are NOT valid. Do a little research.
If you understood a little bit about what goes on in a mine you would understand that once a fatal investigation is completed, a string of violations are given. What that does is cover the regulation side of things, and if they didn't write any violations, people would start asking questions. Something is always going on inside the mines and overlooking and making sure you meet those thousands of pages of laws is quite a task for a single man (foreman) to do. Again, I invite you to go to work with one just for ONE day. You might be a little more understanding.
On the releasing sludge and sediment comment; I mean, are you SERIOUS!? LoL! WoW.... where do I begin with that? I guess all I'll say on that comment is IF the coal companies in your neck of the woods are releasing sludge on the weekends (LoL!) you can call your local or state enforcement division and file a complaint. A formal investigation will be complete and a report will be given to you with a conclusion. It's simple as that. Now.... these ponds WILL discharge during very heavy rain events, and you will be surprised what is caught in those ponds. If we have a series of heavy rain events, those ponds will fill up past their sediment capacity and discharge muddy water that is high in total suspended solids. However, would you also want the sediment that the pond trapped to be released also? I would think not. Coal companies make rounds after large rain events to check sediment capacities on ponds. To a coal company, ponds are NOT a laughing matter, they take them very serious. If pond sediment is close to designed clean-out levels, it WILL be cleaned. Getting a violation is the last thing a coal company wants, it looks bad on them, and it makes a bad public image and a reputable coal company will do all in its power to do the right thing.
I could go on, but I hope you get the point.

I cant add much to what you just typed.

It seems the mining industry continues to pay for mistakes that were made decades ago. The mining companies that operate today are held to a much higher stander and Big Al is right, they do not like getting violations. Can this be said about every mining company, of course not! Every industry will have a few bad apples and when they break the law they should be reported. No one in the industry is advocating breaking the law. As ive stated before, im not against the corps or even the EPA doing their job. In order to do their job they need to have a procedure in place that the coal companies can work through to try and obtain a permit.

Todd

Are email addresses listed on the website? If so, could you please tell me where. For the life of me, I cant seem to find them.

Thanks,
Todd

You can contact anyone on staff via our contact page. The contact forms will send a message to their email accounts. Our email addresses are firstname@kftc.org

http://www.kftc.org/about-kftc/contact-us

When they are 4000 people at a meeting to defend mountain top removal and maybe 150 people there against it, did you ever stop to think when that many people disagree with you,you might be wrong? And I would also be interested in knowing how many KFTC members drove to the meeting polluting my air from as far as three hours away. I didn't see any bicycles or mules parked outside. But that would make you hypocrites wouldn't it?

I hate to use a cliche, but "what's right is not always popular, and what's popular is not always right." Look at the civil rights movement, women's suffrage, even the fight to get SMCRA passed.

And the argument that to fight against MTR means you have to never pollute anything, anywhere doesn't hold up. Just like supporting coal mining doesn't mean you have to support all mining in every situation at all times. For many people, fighting MTR isn't an environmental issue, it's a quality-of-life issue, for themselves and their future generations.

I am born and raised here in East KY and I have no quality of life issues. The only thing that is has done since my fathers lifetime is INCREASE quality of life. Water quality has progressivly gotten better over the years due to coal companies re-mining "pre-law" mining and restoring them to proper standards. The only thing I would like to see is more mountain top development of land. Let's see here...... where do most everyone go to get goods in this area? Wal-mart? Where are most of those built again? How about recreation, such as golf courses, shooting ranges, ATV parks, horse parks, sports complexes? Where are those built again? What about JOBS after mining? Industrial parks, detention centers, SHOPPING centers, businesses? Where are those built again? And where are our ONLY airports in this area? Down in the narrow valley's? Not the last time I checked!

Just as an example, I came across this news story just now: http://www.coalvalleynews.com/pages/full_story/push?article-Sylvester+residents+say+enough+is+enough%20&id=4005325-Sylvester+residents+say+enough+is+enough&instance=home_news_lead. There are also a number of stories on this site about coalfield residents being negatively affected by MTR.

As far as development goes, why don't we build on the hundreds of MTR sites that are undeveloped first, before creating new ones?

I don't have time to sniff through that site right now, but I will say this. There will ALWAYS be people complain about something. If it is sunny outside, people will complain it is too hot, if it is cloudy, they complain of no sun. Do you think everyone would like a car if you could only get it in the color BLACK? Mr. Ford thought so! You can't satisfy everyone, you should know that.

However, we ARE developing old reclaimed mines. When we develope new ones, we account for this in our post mining land use section of the permit. Old sites are being used as wildlife conservation areas for Elk, deer, bear, etc. in multiple counties. Several ATV and horse parks are taking advantage of this land also. Airports in Pikeville, Hazard, and Wise,Va have all been build on old reclaimed mine sites. Recreation such as trails and parks (in Pikeville) are built on old strip mine benches. Golf courses such as Twisted Gun, Stone Crest, and Raven Rock have all been built on previously reclaimed "grass" fields. Multiple housing developments have been built on reclaimed “grass” fields as well. Countless shopping centers, industrial parks have been built on land that was left reclaimed as “grass fields” by the coal companies. What about the new motor sport park near South Williamson? That’s on an old reclaimed mine site. How about the entire downtown of Pikeville? It's almost all built on a FILL not even related to coal mining! Do you see road jobs ever reclaimed? Nope! But, why was it again you all don’t protest those?

Okay they are not going to build an airport or golf course or shopping mall or anything productive in my area. and before the mines came in and started blasting away I saw Turkey and deer and bunnies and all sorts of different animals. Now the only animals I see are rats and snakes and of course bunnies(but you know how they are lol). I live off of any major highway or road and seriously doubt they will bring a "great" Wal Mart over to my poor old neighborhood. I get so sick of hearing people say it is for the growth of our area. Where I live in the middle of nowhere they do not care how it looks they just get by with the bare minimums and most of the time less than that. If it were not for us residents living in there the company would have gotten away with so many serious violations, like mining under the county road and mining off their permit (2 illegal valley fills)just to name a couple.

I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune. But that really seems to be a local issue, no matter what kind of crowd you have, you WILL have a few bad apples; whether it's industry or residence. Again, you CAN'T satisfy everyone. Typically though, there are likely some sort of reason why they placed the valley fills where they did, stability issues, etc. Those kinds of things are resolved later in a permit revision. If you addressed these issues with the state enforcement agencies they will address it with the coal companies. Deep mining under roads is nothing new, many people have deep mine works under their house, yet they just don't know it. There is nothing wrong with 50% extraction of coal under a road or stream with adequate cover to prove stability. US23 has many, MANY areas where mines have gone underneath it. I know several peoples homes with deep mine works underneath that actually DRILL a well down to extract mine water. Most of my family actually get their water, and have been for decades, from old abandoned deep mines because it is safer than stream water due to straight pipe pollution upstream. Anyways, plans to cross roadways and waterways are filed with MSHA, and should be addressed there. Nothing out of the ordinary about that really, it happens all the time.
I mean, of course it doesn’t take much common sense to realize when you live 50-60 miles from a large town/city, no development will be centered there. However, I honestly don't believe these residence around Whitesburg, Hazard, Jenkins, Pikeville, Prestonsburg, Wise/Norton, etc. would have the extra jobs and development if it wasn't without the help of coal mining companies. I don't really see how anyone could argue that. I believe I read a report where there were over 100 businesses built on reclaimed mine land in Wise county VA alone!

Hello all,

I am a former KY resident and now reside in Illinois. I truly commend the people who had the courage to stand up. I honestly felt like I was reading about a rally in a different country. I'm afraid that Eastern KY will never shake it's stigma. Reading this news makes me want to lend more support to KFTC. Thank you for your hard work and remember that change is slow but possible.

Don't you tree huggers realize the jobs that are at stake here? Are you going to put food on my table when coal is no longer being mined? All you hear on the news is how America is jobless right now and you all do not have any respect for those that still have a job keeping your lights on.Do you light your home by lantern?Do you heat your home by natural gas? Until then you need to keep your hippocritcal thoughts to yourself and put some thought into where your electricity comes from.

It is also about protecting our children and their future. It is a shame that in this country we cannot have clean water or clean air. My child has to bath in contaiminated water and we have to have plastic jugs brought to our home just to cook with. I cannot give my child a bath b/c I am afraid she will get some kind of infection or disease. I do love the environment and am a proud treehugger but that is not what it is all about. It is about the future of Kentucky and the future we will be leaving our children and grandchildren.

They make several water filtration systems that will take care of your contaminated water. If you believe the coal mining company caused your "bad water" then file a complaint as I mentioned before. A reputable coal company would be glad to help you out, and believe it or not, they do care about public safety.
However, I believe in doing an honest days work for an honest days wage, and how do you expecet for me to provide for my future children when I do not have the work there to provide for my family? And I am NOT about to uproot and move to somewhere else because a group of people banned my primary source of income. I suppose I could just quit work all together and let Mr. Obama take care of me?

Hey why did I not think about a filtration system! um because it will not work for my arsenic/orange water and you know the coal companies idea of help is just to truck in gallon jugs of water. which is great and all but not the solution I was wanting, but it is us against their many lawyers. well I am not asking you to uproot your family and I don't expect anyone to ask me to do the same, (which they have or have told me to just leave) my husband's family has been living where we live for over 150 years.

and FYI, there are two different processes in which a coal company can get permits - this was just the "rubber stamped" way to get it.

Hey I am sorry for being a smarty pants. I don't want to fight with you or anyone else for that matter. I just want a decent life for my family. I know many of Kentuckians do! We should not be fighting. I realize there maybe good coal companies out there, I just have not experienced it yet. I just get fustrated by people telling me to move or telling me that I am trying to take their jobs from them and I have never done that. When you have to explain to your child that she cannot take a bath because the water can harm her and they cannot understand WHY, then call me all the names in the book but until then please do not.

I'm not arguing with you either, i'm just stating simple facts. You say "it will not work for my arsenic/orange water". How is that? I guess since you know so much about Arsenic water, I suppose you already know that arsenic can be found in two forms in water. Arsenic V (inorganic), and Arsenic III (organic). Reverse Osmosis filtration systems will remove BOTH forms of arsenic found in water. Another alternative is using a specially treated iron oxide media, which will also remove both types of arsenic. And as you know the EPA's acceptable level for arsenic in water is 10 ppb (or .010 mg/L). It is stated on multiple websites that if you have a private well you should test for arsenic at least annually (once a year) because arsenic is often found at levels over 100 times the U.S. EPA safe standard. If that is stated on websites that is nationwide, it must not be that uncommon. However, the alternative method may not work in your case since you stated that you have "orange" water. This means you likely have water with high iron content, or elevated sulfur content. Again, not uncommon at ALL here in East KY. There are MULTIPLE ways to treat for iron/sulfer in water as well. Again..... there are water treatment systems that will work for you whether you want to believe it or not. Get your water tested by a reputable lab company, they will tell you what you need to do to filter/treat it properly, then approach the coal company at cause. They will check pre-blast survey records which will typically consist of a water sample at the time of the pre-blast survey. If an independent (3rd party consultant) finds the mining company at fault, they will install the proper water treatment system without any questions. You can get this fixed correctly without wanting to ban mining all together because of one "bad" coal company.

okay and water treatments are great if you can afford it and we have had someone come and give us an estimate and we have also been told that even with treatment and all that stuff it will still not be drinkable and will never be the same and I know that the orange water is from iron. I also have HIGH levels of selium and several other things that I cannot recall right now. Also it is the company's word against ours. I do not believe a pre-blast survey was done and I am definately sure a water sample was never taken. You act like this is just a piece of cake and there maybe rules and step to take in this situation but they do not always go that way. and it is not just one bad coal company, many companies are "outlaw" companies anymore thinking they have all the power and can do as they please and most of hte time they get away with it.

Erica
without a preblast being done you have no proof that it was good water or no damage was already there.i know you know it was good water but no one else does.that would be just like hitting a car in the back and when the owner showed damage to front a person would say no way.so take pics whenever you have a wreck.my advice is to everyone when a pre blast is offered or a mine is going to mine in your area have one done.the proof would be there if damage is done.otherise grin and take it all i can say.they say when a pre blast is done it protects the mine.in a way it does but also shows damage if they do somthing and not be blame on a lot more.they do them with you around and if they miss something its their fault.so amny want a easy dollar not saying you are but people have to protect themself anyway they can.i think it should be law to do them but tis not only offered if live within a half mile.just like mining a person land you have a choice so make a wise one when you do it.could come back and bite ya

I feel sorry for you folks cause it's clear the pollution is ruining your lives. And saving the commonwealth is probably not going to happen. I feel your frustration. Being the caring person that I am if you guys can find an uninhabited island with no industry that's for sale I will pitch in some money to help pay for it and hire a boat to take all of you to it. Kinda like Gilligan's island. Then everyone can be happy. Till then I hope you can tollerate me shooting bats, killing lizards, supporting the coal industry, and burning enough electricity that the wheel on my meter looks like a saw blade.
I do know the world has less pollution wwhen I hear another Kennedy has gone toes up.

Personal attacks have no place in civil discourse. "Rock" here is just trying to bait folks into replying to his post to cause a scene on what has been an active and productive thread. I, for one, am not going to dignify these inflammatory statements with a direct response.

Moving on...