Quick question, have any of the members of KFTC actually been in an actual working underground mine? In my opinion, if you weigh MTR and Underground mining solely on safety, MTR would win hands down. Ive seen numerous times where KFTC, is concerned for the safety and well being of the citizens of Kentucky, yet you advocate Underground Mining?

Todd

While I certainly don't purport to speak for the whole of KFTC, I think their record on supporting miner safety speaks for itself. The coal industry pushed a bill in the state legislature this year (HB 119) that would cut the number of emergency medical technicians required on staff at each underground mine in operation in KY. KFTC opposed this bill fiercely, along with the unions and others. To say that KFTC doesn't support miner safety is patently false.

Regardless, weighing MTR and underground mining solely on safety is a pointless exercise. The negative environmental and economic impacts that MTR has far outweighs the marginal safety benefits one would have working on a strip mine as opposed to an underground mine - but even that ascribes to a very narrow definition of safety as I'm sure Jeremy Davidson's family would like to attest. Accounting for only a single effect of any particular phenomena is fool-hardy and significantly more likely to yield a compromised (in the negative sense) result.

Taylor,

You think its pointless to argue about the safety of our miners? Thats interesting...

Its obvious that Mountain top Mining is much safer for the individual than underground. Talk to most any miner and they will emphatically agree! KFTC, has stated that underground mining is a safer removal method than MTR but what about black lung? Or Black Damp? KFTC is advocating a mining method that is far more risky and dangerous to the working miners and yet they claim to be supporting miner safety? Maybe ive been stuck in these hills to long but I just cant see it.

Todd

Todd-
when did I say that it was pointless to argue about the safety of coal miners? What I said was: "weighing MTR and underground mining solely on safety is a pointless exercise". Refusing to account for the massive job loss in the coal industry caused by mountaintop removal, as well as the irreversible environmental damage done, makes any arguments solely about miner safety disingenuous. Nothing short of a complete picture (or as close to one as we can possibly get) is of any use. A more synthetic analysis would look at the fact that there are only around 10,000-15,000 mining jobs in KY right now when there used to be around 175,000, or at the fact that underground mining doesn't cause irreparable harm to the land that people need to survive. Talking about safety is important, but talking ONLY about safety won't get us anywhere.

Taylor,

Underground Mining doesnt cause irreparable harm? Have you ever been walking through the mountains and seen the occurrence of subsidence? What about acid mine water that can discharge from an old underground mine works? What about the potential of death from explosions? How about black lung? Do none of these fall in the category of irreparable harm?

What do you attribute to the reason the Elk herd is thriving here in Eastern Kentucky? It couldnt be the flat land created by MTR could it? What about the Knott County trail rides? How much trail rides were of that size before MTR? What about the schools, airports and other developments?

Do property owners not have a right to decide what they can do with their property? Should we have to listen to a group, where the majority of the members live outside of Eastern Kentucky, who have an agenda? Maybe I should head a group to stop the destruction of the beautiful flat lands in Lexington, Bowling Green and Louisville? Oh wait, its perfectly fine to permanently destroy this property because we need jobs and new shopping centers. Not to mention the amount of car pollution that comes from the urban sprawls.

Todd

Todd- I think your initial questions about the permanent damage, both from a human and environmental perspective, from underground mining are valid. But compared to the damage caused by MTR, underground mining is fairly benign. Rather than using those points to make an argument in favor of MTR, it would be more prescient to make an argument in favor of finding ways to employ as many people as underground mining once did without ANY of the adverse effects that all forms of coal mining have wrought on our state.

While the elk population seems to be thriving (albeit mobile, considering alot of those elk are ending up in Virginia, where they weren't particularly welcome), they don't constitute a healthy ecosystem. Reconstructing the landscape of a highway median over the expanse of our state's eastern portion isn't good practice from an ecological perspective. And heralding the golf courses and prisons probably doesn't really help your argument, since I haven't seen how they have provided any new possibilities for economic development in the mountains. If the elk or prisons have turned things around for people, I'd be happy to know how, but last I checked things weren't really that much different.

Likewise, the argument over individual property owners doesn't entirely work, considering that there all sorts of limitations on what property owners can do all over the country, largely because you can't contain the effects of what is done in one parcel of land within that area - a valley fill isn't just a bunch of rocks, it either permanently, or for an extended period of time, blocks the flow of or pollutes E.KY waterways, which affects alot more than just the individual property owner who decided they wanted to make a buck from the coal industry. Those individuals living downstream weren't involved in that transaction, although they should be since, arguably, they are more affected than the actual landowner is.

Even moreso, your point about coming to Lexington to stop urban sprawl is moot since I think you'd be hard pressed to find members of KFTC who think sprawl is a good thing. Most of us would gladly welcome you into our community in order to stop the irresponsible development that plagues our region. I'm not quite sure what "agenda" it is that I, or any KFTC member, possess, but I'd be happy for you to enlighten me on what exactly it is that I believe, although you already seemed to have tried (however unsuccessfully and inaccurately).

Taylor,

What? So you nor KFTC, has an agenda to end MTR? I took the liberty to look up the word "Agenda" - "a list, plan, outline, or the like, of things to be done, matters to be acted or voted upon, etc." Your words and opinions certainly look like an agenda to me, but hey, i probably dont have all that fancy education that you've received which leads you to say you dont have an agenda.

To say that Elk Viewing tours, Elk hunting, golf courses, horse rides, atv rides, sports parks have not been beneficial to Eastern Kentucky would be ridiculous. These are all activities that were either non existent or rare to find in these parts. All of the above activities provide jobs and money for this area. What about the industrial parks in Martin & Perry Counties? They create jobs and additional money.

Taylor, all im looking for is a clear solution to what happens when mining is forced out. What happens to my dad who is 59 years old and been the industry for 35 years? KFTC, keeps preaching about green jobs, but where are they at? They dont exist and whats the odds of them coming back to this area?

Realize something, you and I may have vastly different opinions but we have something in common and thats the fact that we will voice our opinions when needed. Thats all im doing, Im proud of the area that I live in and im proud to stand up and fight for the right to work everyday. Im hopeful that we all can find a middle ground to keep people working and over time phasing out MTR to alternative energies.

Todd

Todd-
just to quickly touch on semantics, an alternative definition of 'agenda' is "an underlying often ideological plan or program" (via Merriam-Webster dictionary). Given your pejorative use of the word previously, your implication was that you (and presumably anyone who is from the mountains, not involved with KFTC or in favor of MTR) have no agenda, and that 'the group' with 'an agenda' should not be taken seriously. If you didn't want to use the word to demean KFTC, a better word, or different context, would have been necessary.

And no, I don't believe that luxury adventure tourism is the answer to the economic development question. How many Eastern Kentuckians in the 29 Kentucky counties whose per capita GDP is less than $12,000 are going to spend their only money on 18 holes instead of paying bills and putting food on the table. 'Green jobs' DO exist, although not really around here (look at New York and California where low-income communities have been revitalized because of new training and employment opportunities). The reason 'green jobs' haven't come to Kentucky yet has been the unwillingness of our state government to prioritize them - although Secretary of Finance Jonathan Miller has been making significant headway on this front in the low-income urban areas in Lexington (and I believe Louisville) in order to work through the challenges that this will present in our state.

I personally believe that the key to success in the coming years is building self-sufficiency within communities - growing local food instead of going to McDonalds, supporting local businesses where jobs and profits all stay within the community rather than shipping profits off to the CEOs of Duke Energy, Massey Energy and Peabody Coal, producing as much energy in the cleanest way possible and as close to its end-use as possible, and, perhaps most importantly, encouraging cooperation between citizens, something that has sorely been lacking in our country as a whole for the last 80 or so years. You're absolutely justified in searching for answers to where your father or any other person in the coal industry is going to get a job - but I don't think you're asking the right question, or at the right time. Coal industry jobs started disappearing 30+ years ago, which was nobody's doing but the industry. It's a shame that our state and national government don't see much use for the Appalachian region as a whole except as a place to extract resources from, but our state's leadership past and present has been nothing short of atrocious in making sure that Eastern Kentucky (and most of the Commonwealth, for that matter) had ample opportunity to provide for its people. Relying on coal, horses and tobacco hasn't really worked out too well on any front, but they all share the dubious honor of having been singled out as the savior of our state's economy. As long as we have a collective one-track mind and refuse to diversify our options in ways that benefit the most people in the maximum possible way (as opposed to benefiting the richest few at the expense of all others), we'll all be screwed. Putting money into quality education from K-college for all our kids rather than into poorly thought out subsidies for big businesses with few employment opportunities, is a good place to start - but good luck with the folks we have in office.

Taylor,

I certainly have an agenda, I dont deny having one. I feel that im fighting for the right to work. Im all for finding new ways to produce energy, but I cant see any suitable solution in the near future, they dont exist. These other alternatives could be here in another 15 to 20 years, but what are we supposed to do in the meantime? Move to Lexington or Louisville? I hope the green jobs in Lexington and Louisville pan out, but why not try those jobs in Eastern Kentucky first?

Todd

I have a thought on Dr. Eller.
I was always told that a person like Dr Eller coming from the "outside" was cammonly refered to as a "Carpetbagger" !
Sorry ,just call'em like I see'em.
True Kentuckains can do without Dr Eller as his main purpose is to make thousands of Kentuckians loose thousands of good paying jobs.
You are in the "trickle down" of a strip minner's job. You wil feel the hurt when that minner's job is gone. First the small "gas-n-go" If that minner will not be going to work to get that small brekfast sanwich,second the gas in the tank of a late model 4x4. Who is going to feel the crunch on that one. All the way back to the insurance company,plus all the other service industries who keep that miner's lifestyle.
I think personally once we "mountaintop the land,we can set some wind turbins for cheap electricity,then get a person to supply the hot air to run the turbine. NO !Wait,we will not have much need for electricity after all the mining jobs and all the service industries in this are are GONE!!!SHAME Dr ELLER SHAME!
BE proud be UMWA.

Greg- while you may be right that Dr. Eller isn't a native Kentuckian, he has been here for nearly 30 years, which counts him as an honorary Kentuckian at the very least. Regardless, Dr. Eller is a native West Virginian whose family worked in coal camps before being forced to move due to job losses. Your assumption that just because he is an "outsider" (but not much of one at that) ignores that his life has not only been parallel to the lives of many Appalachians (From KY, W.Va and VA), but that he is also one of, if not the most respected scholar of Appalachia in the country. His purpose is not "to make thousands of Kentuckians loose thousands of good paying jobs", and to say so is both presumptuous and untrue. While you're certainly entitled to disagree with Dr. Eller (however misguided that may be), your false statements about him as a person and a scholar are intentionally misleading.

It is easy to condemn an industry when your paycheck does not rely on that industry. How about stopping anymore development of greenspace in the bluegrass for shopping centers, subdivisions etc, and how many millions of coal mining dollars have been spent in Lexington and other cities?

my dad woorks in surface minning and without his job my family wouldn't make it a lot of people where im from wouldn't. Coal minning is all we have where im from. Its our way of life. Without it we would all be begging for food. Do people in your postion really take that into consideration? Where im from.. they have stripped the mountain top off in the past.. we call it the "strip job" and its beauiful! The trees are all growing back, theres beautiful ponds, and we love to go horse back riding and four-wheeler riding there all the time. without surface minning we wouldn't have "strip jobs". This is our way of life and not just my family but everyone in kentucky.