Why are you idiots so worried about mountain top removal when you have road job and construction jobs doing much worse thing to the water than coal mine are. What about straight pipes I guess you dont mind some sewer with your water.

Sir, you must not be aware, but Kentucky has legislation targeting straight piping. That is a concern. Construction is a concern. But those can be targeted quickly. Unfortunately, with MTR practices, the effects will last for an eternity.

Yes, coal is not the only problem we have with our environment, but it presents many unique problems that need special attention. The work that KFTC and ally organizations does is needed and courageous. I am a proud member, and I hope that you decide to look more at an issue before you attack one side needlessly.

A law on the books dont mean anything when they are not enfored. There are still plenty of straight pipes.
Road projects do much worse than any coal mine ever does.
If coal mining ever is stopped Eastern Ky will be a ghost town. But you dont understand that because you and every other treehugger I have ever meet or talked to is a IDIOT!

Mountain communities without coal mines routinely have a higher standard of living than those that do.

That having been said, who's talking about doing away with coal mining? KFTC Members just want it done in a way that doesn't utterly destroy the communities we live in.

You can plug your ears and call everyone who wants clean water to drink, good jobs, and clean air to breathe a "treehugger," but I suspect at the end of the day you need all three to live too.

i was in Letcher co awhile ago and in between Whitesburg and the Kona turnoff i noticed the hillside was nothing but broken trees and roads cut this way and that.this was not a coal mine but a logging site.the coal mine at least have stuff to controll the washed off dirt and soil and sow grass or plant trees.i dont see that much being done to make it harder on the loggers.and you say mtn communities have a better standard of living where mining is not being done name a few and we can go from there.what else does eky have to provide jobs but the mines and what goes with it.tourism sure not going to pay 20 bucks an hour so put your proof where you mouth is

Coal companies keep destroying your homeland and give fewer and fewer jobs in return and you're defending their industry even as they take money hand-over-fist from the mountains?

It's like you're the spouse of an abusive husband saying "oh no - it's fine, officer - he doesn't hit me too much - I'm just clumsy and fell down some stairs..." Wake up and get out of this abusive, unhealthy relationship!

"Counties that have produced billions of dollars worth of coal in eastern Kentucky are still among the poorest counties in America. Coal has been mined in eastern Kentucky for over one hundred years. If the coal industry was going to produce prosperity for us, shouldn’t they have done it by now?" (cut from this web site)

when you dont have much of a population it dont take many welfare goverment aid people to lower the income of a area.knott,letcher,perry and some more have so many deadbeats on welfare and SSI that are more able to work than i am.i have worked for the mines since i was 17 and my dad worked in them and i have a pretty high standardd of living and so did my dad.it the deadbeats that wont work that draws the standaerd of living down.so why dont the KFTC do somethign about them.

The reason EKY is in the shape it is in is not because the coal companies but rather it is the crooked politions in Frankfort. Like the ones that tried to pass this stupid stream saver bill. We pay coal severance tax and they take over half and give it to counties that have nothing to do with the mining of coal. 100% of coal severance money should be returned to the counties where it is paid.
By the way coal mining has nothing todo with spouse abuse. Stuoid comparison.
Can anyone explain the camel part of that bill. Sneaky trick.

seems like when someone starts putting info back to these people they SHUT UP and lay down and wont put the money where their mouth is

Your right FAT these idiots dont like to here the truth. I guess they want all of us to work at Wal-Mart when the mines are gone. Ther just to stupid to realize that when the mines are gone Wal-Mart will be gone!
Coal mining is one of the most regulated business in the country. They are just to blind to see it.

Did you ever notice how "Jonathan Gregory" and "F" always post on the same blog entries, at the same time, with the same backwards logic and the same kinds of spelling and grammatical errors?

It's like they're the same person or something.

Hmmm.

we are not the same person i can grant you that.i dont know about Jonathan but i work on a surface mine and proud of it.you are trying to make my way of earning a living harder and maybe out all togather and i am standing up to what i believe in just like you are.so let the games begin

I did not write this post some idiot treehugger has used my name on there post. COWARD. Who ever it was is a coward. If youve got something to say use your name like I do. There is nothing I have posted that I am ashamed of that is why I put my real name. I dont know FAT. But i work on a strip job in Perry county. And I proud of the work we do. Some idiot is ashamed of thereselves they proved it by using my name. Just shows what cowards KFTC'S are. Yea I said it and I will stand in your faces and say it. COWARDS

I have just returned from the DC week, and see by some of the postings, the mentality for the mountain and water destroying earth movers hasn't changed. Evidently these people who are calling other people names are unable to read, because if they could it is very evident that no one is trying to shut down coal mining. They never said how the mines were going to be shut down, but I have to assume they were paid to make the recent trip to Frankfort by the coal industry and received all the wrong info from their employers,"as USUAL"
Coal is a finite resource (look that up in the dictionary under F)
I personally think the word these or this person is useing, to describe individuals who are trying to help E. Ky., definitely fits the person who is typing it in.
Had a great week in Washington, Thank GOD all the Politicians aren't in the pocket of the Coal Industry. I heard a rumor while in Wash that the federal gov. is going to mandate a substantial pay raise for Deep Miners. Just a Rumor!

Yea I went to Frankfort. I did not get paid to go. I can read and I read the bill and If this bill gets pass it will stop strip mining. You need to focus on some of the less regulated industries first. Like logging, oilwell sites, road projects and construction projects. None of these have any regs like strip mining does. But they polute the water worse than we do. Also you all still over look straight pipes. Yea there are laws on the books but they are not enforced. Get your priorties straight.
By the way would you like to explain the part about the tax break for camels. Pretty sneaky.

I hope they do give the deep miners a raise because we make more on the surface than they do underground. If the stream saver bill is passed it will effect them as much as it will surface and they will need the money.

Who paid yourr way to DC.i didnt go to Frankfort because our company wouldnt let us off so guess you may have a coal company on your side.
i would like to know how you can not have valley fills and surface mine.it dont work never has never will.when you put spoil on benches and places it make them over weight and they slide.i know it looks good on paper but it wont work look at all the old mine sites and see the slide and scars and highwalls showing

I happened to be one of the people who went to DC to lobby for clean water and I am by no means an idiot. I think it really shows ones intelligence when you have to resort to name calling when you disagree with someone. We in Kentucky all want the same standard of living as the rest of the Nation. If you think the coal industry has always treated our people with respect take a long look at history. As the Unions were fighting for simple things like health care for their workers we were being portrayed to the rest of the nation as barbaric. Take a look at the documentary Harlan County wars, for gods sake it was the 70s and the people who worked in the mines that lived in the coal camps did not even have running water or indoor plumbing.
I watched my Father smother to death from black lung, I watched my brother and his family do with out as he suffered thru one surgery after another after being crushed in the mines then die at the young age of 41. I As a KFTC member standing with the widows and supporters of mine safety legislation last year watched as the bill was gutted and watered down to nothing while the politicians and coal industry was saying it was far reaching. That statement was made by Rep. Robin Webb the very one who stood on the steps while the miners were present this year saying I am one of you. I think you should really rethink who the idiots really are. KFTC wants a better standard of living for all its people and when you trample on your neighbor while saying you are bettering yourself is not the right way to bring prosperity to your homeland. The best way to make a difference in our State is to work together to bring positive change. But again if you look at history the coal industry has always played the divide and conquer game. And you are playing right into their hands.

I agree about the history of coal mining how the wokers was overun and such but is it these days.maybe somewhere else but not in eky.i have worked in unsafe conditions and such before it just dont happen anymore.They say its not to stop coal mining but on all the other websites it says STOP MTR.anyone in the area knows when you dont have a place to put spoil and place it upon natural benches it make them overwieght and they slide then here we go again.if person or group came into your area and started going aginst the way the way you made your living what would you do.i am sure if you tried to set down with the miners and work someting out here you might be surpised how much support you can get.instead dont say this is the way its going to be or else.i made a offer still stands to help work with these people but seems like its their way or no way

I am willing to have a conversation with miners. We all need to work together to make this a place for all to live and work in harmony. But I surely have to disagree with you when you say it is not unsafe in EKY that is where my brother met his death. According to a study by Ken Ward from the Charleston Gazette 9 out of 10 deaths in the industry was from safety violations.
The biggest thing to acknowledge is coal is not going to be here forever, according to the Kentucky Geological Survey they say there is only 10 to 20 years of socialbly and environmentally mineable coal left in Central Appalachia. The industry says we have 100 to 200 years left but that is not the truth. So we must think about what we will have left when they get all that they want and leave.
If you look around the world the greatest need of every culture is clean water. People die every few seconds from a lack of it, that is why we feel it is so important to protect it.
As far as where to put the spoil when we challenged a permit with 6 valley fills the engineers reworked the permit that did not do one valley fill and was able to mine the coal. According to the Environmental Impact Study done by the US EPA it said it would only add up to $1.00 per ton of coal. It can be done it just might cost the industry a little from their profit.
We are Appalachians we are strong willed and we must work together to protect our homeland. I think you have the wrong ideal when you say we come in we live here it is our homes also. My GrandMother traveled into Kentucky in a wagon train from Virginia in the late 1800's

I agree that the past in coal mining is a rough one but that was then and this is now. Safety standards have greatly improved. Besides you all are not focousing on deep mining you are focousing on MTR and surface BIG DIFFERENCE.
Clean water you say. Then stop the poluters. Straight pipes(raw sewage). There was a study that came out just a few days ago about this countrys water. It said that the major pollution in the countrys water supply was drugs and antibiotics that had went thru the human body then flused down the toilet. Not coal mone runoff. If you are so worried about run off in the water how about construction and road projects. They have no sediment control. If you dont believe me go look at the road project on rte7 at Jeff no runoff controll. What is the difference between a coal mine and them? NONE.
But still you focous on coal mining. You talk about wroking together. Oh by the way you spell it (working). Start where the major problems are and keep it even across the board. Dont focous on just coal mining. The stream saver bill was aimed right at coal mining.
Another thing you all talk about working together and that you are not focousing on coal mining then why dont you post you real name instead of a nickname. It makes me think you are ashmed of what you are saying. But if I was saying what you all are I would be ashamed also. Jonathan Gregory is my real name whats yours?

Ok, if you want us to focus on the real problem then just go look at the permits to "fill" (means bury) streams issued under the 404 section of the clean water act. You can find them at this web site, http://www.lrl.usace.army.mil/ under notices. Go ahead take a look. You will find that of the 19 permits under consideration since January of this year, 12 are for coal mining. This is a clear majority.

But lets not stop there, lets look a little closer. Of the 7 that are not for coal companies, 5 are for either dredging in the Ohio or Green River, which is not burying a stream. The other two are for constructing buildings, one a Lowes and the other a warehouse. This will bury 0.08 miles of perennial stream, 0.38 miles of intermittent and 0.36 miles of ephemeral stream.

Ok, now lets look at the 12 coal mining permits. one is a renewal permit so it doesn't add to the total streams being buried. of the 11 others they bury 0.13 miles of perennial stream and 0.69 acres of wetlands. Not too bad right? But that's not all, they also bury 4.2 miles of intermittent streams and 2.7 miles of ephemeral streams. So there you can see coal mining is burying far more streams than road construction, general housing construction or farming.

But it doesn't stop there. We could also look at the "temporary" impacts. This is very often the distance between the toe of the valley fill and sediment pond. they call this temporary because the coal companies say that as one of the last stages of the bond release they will come back and remove the sediment pond. (My experience is that most of the coal companies end up defaulting on the last few stages of their bond release because it costs them more to move the equipment back in to finish the bonding work than it does to just not get the last little bit of bond money back.) Anyway, sorry for the digression.

Now, back to the "temporary" impacts. These 11 coal mining permits will "temporarily" impact another 0.26 miles of perennial stream, 5.5 miles of intermittent stream and 0.7 miles of ephemeral stream.

I would agree with you that there is a lot of run off damage from bad logging and oil and gas drilling practices. But, as you say, we want to focus on the biggest problem first and clearly coal mines are burying more miles of stream at a much faster rate than any other activity. And yes, I've seen the road destruction happening on Route 7 between Letcher and Perry County, and it is awful. Just so you know, Jean Ritchie, who is from that area wrote to Governor Fletcher to ask him not to go forward with the project. He wrote back thanking her for agreeing with him that the project would greatly improve the road. But even this bad road project is just impacting a small area compared to the hundreds of miles of streams being buried by coal companies.

And as for the straight pipes, by all means please work to put an end to them. They are awful. But we think there are plenty of other organizations working on this issue. PRIDE is working on as are many of the local county governments. But it doesn't do any good to destroy the stream at the headwaters and then try and clean it up further down stream. We have to look at cleaning the entire stream before it will be healthy once again.

First thank you for using your name and not hiding behind a nickname. But you are still ignoring the worst problems. Just because somebdy else is working on the straight pipes doesnt mean they will get fixed. Rte 7 I know Jean Ritchie and just because she wrote a letter doesnt mean the problem is fixed. The Rte 7 job will polute the river more while it is being built more than most coal companies will their whole time in business. Look into where they cut into an old deep mine and released the water into the river. That right there was more damage than any coal company releases in a life time. If that would have been a coal company that release that water they would have been shut down. Yes the water did come out of a old deep mine they should have had some type of sediment control in place wether they knew it was there or not.
The other industries that fill streams should be held to the same standards that coal companies are held to. This should be done first.

Hey Greg, I appreciate your concern for the Kentucky River and I agree the contractor that released the mine water into the river should be held accountable. However to say that the same thing does not happen in mining operations is simply not true. Take for example the Miller Brother's mine in Floyd County at the head of Raccoon Creek. (If I'm correct the company that started the mining there was Motts Branch) Anyway they cut into an old deep mine, but they chose to do it on a Friday evening, and flooded the creek with acidic mine water. Someone who lives down below call the state inspectors and they came out and told the company they need to stop the water. Which the company did.

The inspector then said that if they did it again they would be fined. Later that night the company let the water go again. The inspector came back out the next day and yelled at the company, but still didn't fine them or issue a violation. The company then tried to open the mine up on the other side of the hill and release the mine water. People in that holler complained as well but no violations were issued.

I know that part of the fault lies with the mine inspectors, but in the end the fault lies with those that are breaking the law. If someone turns their back on someone else breaking the law they both need to take responsibility for the problems.

And the problems from the route 7 construction are from one site, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of mines spread out around the 12 primary coal producing counties. You can see all of these mines by going to this state web site: www.minepermits.ky.gov/mapsspatialdata/interactivemaps.htm and click on the GIS viewer.

And as any organization we all need to choose priorities, PRIDE chooses to focus on cleaning up trash dumps and straight pipes, but they want to turn their back on the burying of headwater streams. That's their choice. Our members choose to focus on the burying of headwater streams. I'd encourage you to be involved an active with organizations that focus on the issues you are most concerned about.

Jonathan and F at, I continue to appreciate your activity on our blog, however your tone at times seems to be less about trying to communicate with others and more about trying to shout or insult others. I realize that some of the responses to some of your statements have also not been in the spirit of encouraging a discussion and that is unfortunate. These are important issues that deal directly with people's lives, their property, their employment and frankly the future of central Appalachia and not to be overly dramatic the future direction of the energy needs of our country.

Eastern Kentucky has a future, and coal will continue to be a part of the present as well as the future, but like it or not, coal production is decreasing. What will we have left in the future? We are looking at places like Carr Creek Lake and Fish Trap Damn as a drinking reservoirs, but all the mining around these lakes is causing them to fill up with sediment three times as fast as the Army Corps predicted. We're turning all of our headwater streams and rivers into sediment filled drainage ditches. And along with this sediment comes heavy metals and compounds that settle out and cover the bottoms of the creeks killing everything in the creek. We still haven't cleaned up the messes from all the mining before the 1977 surface mining laws went into effect and that was over 30 years ago. How long will it take for the region to recover from the problems we are creating today?

We are also working on getting the state to change the way it does economic development. Right now if it's not a project that will bring in 100 or more jobs the state does not want to invest in helping the project work. And lets face it, Toyota or anything like Toyota, is not going to locate in eastern KY. We need to be investing in small cottage industry that is started up by the people living in eastern Kentucky. We need to invest in entrepreneurs, our people who will start out with ideas that will employ maybe 3-5 people to begin with and then help them to grow. This is true about rural areas across the state, but the cabinet for economic development refuses to even evaluate how they are doing let alone change anything. We don't just want to protect our streams, we want to see the region grow and prosper in the same way that other parts of the country grow and prosper. And I don't think that messing ones own nest is a good growth plan.

You cant judge all mines and all inspector by the failure of one or two. But you should hold all industries that do the same thing (coal mining, road construction and development) to the same standards not a different standard for each one like there is now.
As far as my tone I treat people the way they treat me. When you came on this blog and addressed me with respect I treated you with respect. But when someone compares the job that I do with beating my wife or gets on the radio and says that if I drive a rock truck that Im a outlaw. I treat them with the same nonrespect that they give me.
You have not said anything about stopping mining (the way I feed my family). But some people in your organization want to stop mining all together. That is ignorance. Every person in the U.S. wether they want to admit it or not uses 3.8 tons of coal a year. If coal mining in EKY is stopped then EKY will stop. There will be no Wal Mart or anything else. These are the facts weather you all like it or not.

I understand and appreciate your response to others labeling you or the work you do. It's unfortunate that people feel that is ok and I realize it cuts to the quick.

I think the core of our disagreement comes is encapsulated in your statement that "If coal mining in EKY is stopped then EKY will stop." I guess I believe that as long as were are so solely dependent on coal, and by that I mean the country depends on coal for about 55 percent of our electricity and in Kentucky it is about 92 percent, then we will never be able to regulate it properly.

I believe you would say the industry is either over regulated or that it is regulated far more than ay other industry. (please correct me if I'm wrong) I would say that there are a lot of regulations, but if the goal of those regulations is to protect people, their property and the environment then those regulations are not working.

Examples of the regulations not working; black lung is as bad as it ever was and it's virtually impossible to get compensation, streams are being buried at an alarming rate, the amount of complaints we receive about blasting damaging people's homes, both deep mining and strip mining destroying people's water wells, just the existence of slurry ponds when there is another method (dry cake pressing method) of processing the coal, the fact that the EPA has not updated air quality standards around processing plants in 20 years when they are suppose to do it every 5 years, the fact that the federal government continues to hire coal industry lobbyists to over see MSHA and OSM, the Martin County sludge flood, that Massey Coal admitted to violating the clean water act by releasing pollution into the streams of eastern Kentucky and West Virginia more than 4,000 time between 2000 and 2006 and they never stopped mining coal for a minute and then we find out that Massey CEO Don Blankenship was given 24 million dollars, that coal mines are hiring more and more temp workers to avoid paying benefits and to keep wages low (the first coal miner wh died this year was a temp worker on a strip mine in Harlan county), that somehow hard packed clay and rock spayed with hydro-seed can be called reclaimed Fish and Wildlife land.... and I could go on and on....

I believe that the only time the mines will ever be able to be adequately regulated is once we lessen our dependence on coal and hopefully all other fossil fuels. If we only used coal for 5-10 percent of our base load electricity then there wouldn't need to be the attitude that we have to move as much coal as possible at all costs.

okay first off if someone downs you and what you do for a living what are you going to do turn the other cheek.i dont think so.if my answer seem out of line i am sorry for that but when some is thrown at me i get deffensive.okay now on the other hand.the bill why not of worded it to include anytime a stream in filled by anything not only coal but for a parking lot or whatever.not only in EKY but alllover the state.on the website ilovemountians.org all they preach about is stop MTR they dont have anything else on it.i saw 2 of my sons have to leave this area to find work stable enough to provide a lifetime of work.the census shows people are leaving for some reason.i dont think the tourism market will provide a enough jobs and the money miners make
okay now the regulations the speed limit is 55.its the law.if a officer sees a person speeding and dont write them a ticket then its not done right.then a little later someone gets killed because this person is speeding then what.maybe if the officer done his job theat person might have lived.there are laws that says mines is not to suppose to release water and so forth into streams and keeep dust down so no black lung plus i can go on and on.if the inspector finds these laws being broken and dont do anything he is as much at wwrong as the coal mines.the law needs to be enforce that are in place right now.if this bill gets passed and is not enforced what good did it do.get the ones enforced that are already there.if a inspector is not doing his job replace him to someone that will and after a few is dismiss i say more will start doing their jobs.thanks you for your time

First off I agree that surface mining is both over regulated and far more regulated than any industry that does the samethings that a surface mine does (move earth). As far as fish and wildlife I guess you fail to see the largest Elk herd east of the missippi river not to mention heathier Elk than in the western states. How about the comeback of wild turkeys. How about the Canadian geese that come to the ponds at the former Starfire job. There is also some of the best pond fishing in the state right here in Eastern Ky. Since we are talking about animals can you explain the part about camels in the stream saver bill?

How to explain the part about camels and the Stream Saver Bill, ok I'll try. Here is the way I understand things, any legislator on any committee in the House of Representatives has the power to propose what is called a committee substitute for any bill that comes before that committee. What that means is that that legislator suggests that the committee substitute new language into the proposed bill that is about to get a hearing before the committee.

This new language can be similar to the original language of the bill or it may be something completely different. Usually the sponsor of the bill that is about to be changed is aware of what is going to happen and is supportive of the changes. And usually the vote to change the language is simply a procedural vote that is usually approved. Then the committee continues with testimony about the new language.

So when the camel bill came before the House Appropriations committee the chairman of the committee had already decided they were going to try and substitute the language of the stream saver bill for the language in the camel bill that exempted camel feed from requiring a sales tax.

Rather than have the procedural vote to insert the language of the stream saver bill before hearing testimony on the new language, the chairman decided to hear testimony on the proposed language, which took two days, and then took a vote on whether to insert the language of the stream saver bill. This procedural move needed a majority of the committee to vote in favor of substituting the language of the stream saver bill for the language in the camel bill, but it received 13 votes in favor of proceeding with the committee substitute, 12 votes against, 3 legislators who abstained and 1 who walked out before the vote.

Committee substitutes are a fairly common practice in Frankfort, this effort simply received a lot of attention. Leadership in the house use it all the time. Sometimes they use it to combine lots of similar bills into one bill, such as what Representative Rocky Adkins did this year with House Bill 2.

The end result would have been a vote on the stream saver bill and the bill would have had nothing to do with camels. Hope that helps explain the process.

I know how the process works. Who thought it would be a good idea to put the camel bill in the stream saver bill.
You still havent addressed my comments about the wildlife around here. But if you dont live in EKY you wouldnt know about them.